How should Giant Grenadiers be balanced?

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Im playing a lot of germany atm, mostly 3v3 with friends and casuals… so the game often lasts way into imperial with maxed out ecos. I love the new mercenary camps (and the unit options), but i have to admit, that giant grenadiers in masses are somewhat op.

Dont get me wrong, they are expensive af and get countered by skirm and cannons really cost effective, BUT they can break through everything, walk into economies and oneshot entire villager populations in seconds. Idc if i lost 8k gold, when the enemy eco is crippled afterwards. They have high HP, high melee attack and high aoe ranged damage. Idk how to balance them, so that they are not useless in regular supremacy games. Maybe reduce their HP? Or give them a buildlimit (20)?

I think, their inteded purpose is to be a support unit, so low numbers shouldnt be the problem…
but what do u think?

p.s.: sweden has also giant grens as an option

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Swedes require two cards:
Contract (to unlock + get a bunch) which is excellent value unit shipment, even aside from the unlocking.
GMC’s to upgrade them, 25% each stat

Germany requires four cards:
Advanced ####### ####### get this for free in age 2)
Improved mercenaries (5% worse on both stats for Germany, but available an age earlier)
Mercenary camps (to unlock and still you have to build a separate building instead of just get it in the barracks like Sweden)
Grenade Launchers (to unlock Incindiary grenades at arsenal, sweden has this by default)

(damage, hp, speed, bayonet, incindiary grenades all effect them in arsenal)
(imperial age-up should be mercenary contractor for both civs)

But here’s the real piece of data:
Sweden can INSTATRAIN them Russia-style (in Imperial age) because they’re affected by engineering school, which Germany doesn’t have. This is a really, really big deal, because even with the church tech and fencing school on Germany, they still take forever to train.

^ Just posting all this for informative purposes, been messing with them over the last few days a fair bit.

I don’t think they’re OP. They’re population efficient units. but they’re not cost efficient units. They’re like a much-less-bad original Cuirasser, in that they’re very scary to face down, but they are a very expensive thing to face down their counters with. In the olden days, I remember many French players in treaty games throwing hordes of Cuirassers into my Jinetes, not understanding how they weren’t winning. Eventually, their economy broke before mine was touched and they’d fall down. I feel like the Giant Grenadiers are similar in this circumstance but much less threatening as cannons can mow them down with absolute impunity. Light Cannons and Flaming Arrows are next-level at destroying them particularly.

10,000 gold buys you 40. Two moderately well placed cannon volleys can cost you 10,000 gold. It’s not sustainable.

In small numbers (non-treaty) I have had my arse handed to me soundly by an AI using cassadores vs me testing out the grenadiers on Sweden. Was expecting to be able to close up and blow them away but got quite an education on the matter.

I think they’re fine. It’s a high risk high reward unit. It’s devastating to the player who doesn’t counter it, but also devastating to the user when countered.

NOTE TO FORUM MODS: How is putting the word “Sweden” after the word “Arsenal” tripping the profanity filter?

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Sure, i know how they get countered (and really costeffective), but my point is: this doesnt matter if you run inside the enemy base and demolish everything. They can take quite a punch, and you need tons of skirms to kill them. In close combat (which is the case, when you’re in the enemy base) they can melee cannons (and artillery is to slow produced to defend at that point). Its ok to lose 10k… 20k… gold, if your enemy is frustrated and gives up. And think about civs that dont have easy access to cannons or good skirms - honestly, everytime i played an inca, i didnt know, how he should even counter me ^^’

yeah swedish giant grens are insane aswell, but i think the church speedboost + drummers for germany is nothing to laugh at :smiley: at that point it doesnt matter if i spent 8k or 9k gold^^

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German church speed boost increases their cost so it makes them worse.

Japan and Iroquois have the best counters to them despite lacking falcs/horse guns. Aztec is maybe an outlier as not having a good answer - but somebody may wish to correct me on that.

If running inside the enemy base and demolishing everything is grounds for nerfing, I’d like to introduce you to Mr Oprichnik. He’ll be your new best friend. He’ll do this better AND cost effectively.

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→ thats why i wrote

i was not talking about them. Both have artillery AND great skirms

so is inca
(idk how well lakota, china or india performs against them)

the big difference is, that oprichniks are mediocre at best in every other aspect. Giant grenadiers can obliterate skirms and artillery if they get too close. You can put units into the way of oprichniks and block them from factories and vills; you cant do it against giant grens.

Mass giant grens + some petards for the walls if u like… maybe a culv or two. walk into the base, use staggermode and split your units. destroy artillery foundaries, destroy some houses and then target the eco.

look, i really like giant grenadiers and i dont want to remove it or overnerf or smth, they are so fun… but its not cool, if this fun ruins the game for some of the players with civs that cant do anything against it. What would be so bad about a build limit of like 20? I mean tashunke prowler are also limited

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Just increase the pop to 3 and call it a day. As is, theyre almost directly comparable to soldados and the while schtick or mecs is stronger but supply inefficient. Apply that and all should be dandy.

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No. You want to make them never be used? increase their pop to do that. The game should have high cost but strong units. You can easily drain someone who spams these as it is. If they break into your eco you should have more walls or better stopped them. Also usually breaking in to kill some vills at the cost of an army that costs 8k is not worth it.

The unit is perfect is at is. People are constantly trying to nerf units just because they have strong stats (even at a very high cost). That is what makes the game FUN.

AND if your gripe is that they can walk into enemy economies and kill villagers easily, so can oprinick but much cheaper and more effectively.

2 Likes
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there are civs that cant do anything against it

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what civs cant do anything against it?

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bro just read the comments.

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If your civ has a counter to heavy infantry then you can counter them…

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yeah, i want to see u using jungle bowman against giant grens standing in your eco. they get one or two shot

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put high hp units in front of them. Also if anything thats more of a fault of the inca having low HP skirm type units (something they should get buffed instead)

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ok, what high hp unit do u suggest the incan player using then? and tbh 25% more hp on junglebowman wouldnt change anything either

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You can just kite them with jungle bows quite easily, other than that huaracas are quite effective late game as an abus gunner type skirm. I’d just go jungle bows though because giant grens don’t have any range resist. Jungle bows have more speed and more range and a couple of damage boosting cards.

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Your arguement points to the fact that the inca have weak units… Ive always thought inca’s macemen should be 2 pop and have higher hp but devs wont do that because then people will complain that their units are OP. Other civs dont have an issue counter giant grenadiers. Just dont play inca against germans.

Also devs made spies for the portugese absurdely OP at countering merc type units so if you want to drain a merc spammer into the abyss be portugal.

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thats my point from before: you cant put anything in the way of giant grens → if you need to kite, you cant stop the mass. there is only limited space for kiting in a base. you want to effectifly stop the gren before reaching vital infrasturcture like the comuinty plaza, factories, houses, etc.

Playing germany you can also combo giant grens with pandurs. They outkite your junglebowman /and every other skirm) like nothing.

its quite boring tbh since you only need gold and just swap mill cards for aditional plantation ones

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If you get gg’ed because your community plaza gets taken down you already lost.

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i’m not talking about portugal… so ok? and just picking ports because you face germany is not viable, since you dont know if he goes mercs.

but tell me how many mercenary counters native civs have? and china? … and india?

its just an example, but comunity plazas are vital for native civs (especially aztec). You tend to forget, that i’m the german player and just report, what happens, when i use giant grens

also what about the pandur?

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yeah so you pulverized some noob who was gona lose anyway lol. The idea is that if someone breaks into your base you should punish them for that by making it cost inefficient for them to do so.