How to balance Indian elephants

Still not as useful for Indians because Indians already have a much better cavalry option that they are 100% going to have to tech into-> Indian camels

So there is no question of “Adding BE to Indians maiking them OP”

If you have a logical reasoning to oppose Indian BE let us now @MatCauthon3
because JonOli has already shown himself that Indians with BE will not be “OP civilization”

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no it just shows i’m a realist.
in the past you asked for the EA to be buffed.
it got buffed. but its still not enough to make you happy. you want more buffs for the EA even though viper considers it a pretty solid unit after testing it.

what do Indians want beyond that?
they want Indians to have more civs.
they want Indians to have melee elephants.

so you’re telling me that you expect me to believe that if you got melee elephants, you wouldn’t ask for more?
you guys even point out how you never use Elephants on non Khmer as is because they are too slow.
so you expect me to believe you would be happy with just having battle elephants that you wouldn’t use? please. you aren’t even happy with buffed Elephant Archers that tore through Malians.

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Yes only these two things are needed to fix Indians
Of which the First I’m not talking about here as it will take years if it will happen

The second, giving EBE to Indians is totally fair and just, and can happen quick too.

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fix indians how? they aren’t broken.
oh, because they aren’t designed the way you want?
means literally nothing.

and according to you and @CheshireWig3203 you guys don’t even use elephants if they aren’t khmer because they aren’t good at all.

so you expect me to believe you’ll be happy with unusable battle elephants on indians as a civ?
you guys aren’t even happy with Elephant Archers as they are even though Viper says they are good.
i fully expect that if you got elephants your next complaint would be that they aren’t usable and need a buff!

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Kepp ignoring public sentiment

Again your line of thinking is quite Judgemental and also illogical. It is just, unhealthy.

This just shows your incredible bias
JonOli himself made statements that clearly showed Indians with EBE is defintly not “OP”

when you can prove to me that the majority of the over 2 million people agree with you let me know.

you can prove that the majority wants more civs that is true. can you prove that the majority want both new civs and for those civs to come from India?
since you like to use forum polls to prove your point.


the highest Civ that “you” consider an Indian Civ is Bengali, and they are ranked 7th. the next highest is Tamilis at 9th. if Public opinion is what matters, you better start hoping they add at least 10 civs.

its not illogical.
You have a history of being staunchly opposed to “unused” units, this forum is littered with evidence that you and @CheshireWig3203 are heavily against units going “unused”.
you have a history of asking for the Elephant Archer to be buffed because you think it is weak and under powered.
you and @CheshireWig3203 have both admitted that you don’t use battle elephants from at least half the civs with them, because they aren’t good.

Indians, according to what you guys have just said, would receive zero bonus for their battle elephants. this would make them the worst battle elephants in the game, as every other civilization with battle elephants gets some sort of bonus for them, whether it being cheaper, or faster, or extra health, or extra armor.

thus, logically, by your own standards, the battle elephants Indians would get would go unused.
you expect me to believe that you, @CheshireWig3203, and your fellow indians fans just put in all that campaigning to get a unit, and you’d be happy having it even if its unused?
your own post history tells me that logically the answer is no, because in your own opinion, no unit should go unused.

thus logic would dictate that you would campaign for some sort of bonus to Indian Elephants. it might not happen right away, but i would expect you to do so.

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The following units are all for the most part unused, because they are not yet balanced.

1. TKs
2. Shotels
3. Jags
4. Karambits
5. Missionaries
6. Flaming camels
7. Gbetos
8. HCs
9. Orjan Guns
10. Genitours
11. Ballista Elephants
12. War Elephants
13. Elephant Archers
14. Steppe Lancers
15. Condottieros
16. Genoese Crossbows
17. Siege Towers
18. Turtle Ships
19. Mamelukes
20. Cataphracts
21. Longswordsmen

exactly my point. if you aren’t happy with those units, what would lead me to believe you’ll be happy with just getting battle elephants your civ won’t even use? you clearly have a history of being opposed to unused units!

you expect people to believe you all put in all that time and effort campaigning for Indians to get battle elephants and would be happy to have a unit you don’t even get to use?

your response to the flaming camel proves otherwise. the flaming camel was added at fan request and you aren’t even happy with that.

Keep on using Ad hominems,
when my point was clearly about the game, you go on rambling about me
This is not a healthy line of thinking that you are using

I never asked for flaming camels, but that they do exist, I want them to be BALANCED. And actually be useful practically, not relegated to a joke.

And yes, I would love to see Flaming Camels actually used in actual serious games

-5G price and Availability at STABLES for a start. Atleast they should keep with the theme of no two UUs coming from the same building, i.e. the Castle.

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i’m not. i am in no way attacking your character at all. i may not agree with you about unit balance, but it is the way you feel and you’re entitled to that.

what i am doing is using the bountiful evidence you have given us in this very forum, to show why i don’t believe you when you say you’d be happy just getting battle elephants, with no bonuses.

you have an extensive history of being opposed to unused units.
so why would i expect you to be satisfied with getting a unit added to your civ that you don’t even get to use? instead of dodging or accusing me of things i’m not doing, tell me why we should expect you to be happy with just getting battle elephants?

which just proves my point.
if a unit which was added purely as a flavor thing at fan request must be buffed to usefulness for you to be happy with it, why should i expect you to act any differently if you get battle elephants added to Indians as a flavor thing at fan request?

Here you go again twisting my words to fit your narrative…
I said there is zero reason for Indians to get Battle Elephants. They just don’t need it. In fact, giving them Battle Elephants is detrimental, they serve no purpose in an Indian army :

  • Indian army is already pretty heavy on gold investments, why giving them a unit with yet another high gold cost?

  • Imperial Camels can deal with cav, HC with UT can deal with infantry, EA can deal with archers, Camels and EA both have bonus damage against buildings. Everything a Battle Elephant can do, the Indian army already have something taking care of it, leaving BE as a redundant unit.

  • for all the flaws of the EA, I still acknowledge something : thanks to its range attack and Parthean Tactics, it performs a bit better against its regular counters, Monks and Pike-line, than BE.

Here you have a few reasons to NOT give Indians BE. Now I would like you to give some arguments of your own, that isn’t the result of a vote pool, twisting someone words, or “it’s not OP”.

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I’m sorry how again is it detrimental if we add EBE to the current Indians?

No, those aren’t reasons to NOT give them BE.
Those are just reasons why they wouldn’t need to have BE.

There is quite a world’s difference between those

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It is detrimental because : it’s unneeded, has no role or purpose, and will end up as an unused unit and a gold dumper. Since Indians have no need for BE, there is no need to give them BE, so don’t give them BE. It is as simple as that.

Now would you be kind enough to stop dodging my question and give me some actual arguments to back up your claim?

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Yes in terms of gameplay they don’t need to use BE
But for thematic and historical reasons, they should be give BE

And since givine them BE is not going to destroy any balance or make them OP (as they dont need BE in terms of gameplay), there is no downside to this, only upsides, where the civ theme is preserved.

Just like how the Mongols didnt NEED Steppe Lancers, yet they retroactively got them from the devs for thematic and historical reasons, that too with a special +30% Hp bonus

Need more proof than that?

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Indians already have the Elephant Archer to fit the “historical accuracy” though.

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So?
Mongols also already had the Hussars as well as the Knights for the historical accuracy (Hussars/Knights IRL used lances)

yet they retroactively got Cuman/Tatar Steppe Lancers from the devs for thematic and historical reasons, that too with a special +30% Hp bonus

As far as I can see, you’re on really flimsy ground here

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From what I could gather, Steppe Lancer could be seen as a “transition unit” for the Mongols, helping them between their early eco bonus to their late game army of cav archer and siege.

Sure they have the option of knight or light cav, but the steppe lance comes out as a better alternative, since it strikes a middle ground between the 2 (and mongols lack paladins, so knights will hit a dead end anyway).

So regarding the topic,

Just like the Mongols retroactively got SL line(that too 130% HP), Indians should also be given BE line. It is literally the exact same situation and logic.

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and just like then, i fully expect to see you campaign to have Indians new unit that got added buffed to usable levels.

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It’s not. As I just said, Steppe Lancer acts as a early Castle raid unit, since the knight line is more costly but also a dead end in Imperial.
That logic doesn’t apply for BE in an Indian army.

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