It seems that they got too much HP in my opinion…
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After some testing I notice an effective counter to grenadier: Using a cav + archer combo with optional mangonels:
- Prefer heavy cavalry over light cavalry but light can also works in number and attack from multi angle
- You have to fully upgrade your archers
Firstly, the strength of grenadier comes from their number. Their first shot kills when the aoe damage is stacked up. When you split your unit to attack from multiple direction, this unstack the damage so your units can survive to continue the fight. Try to match your army with their number of grenadiers.
Secondly, the range and melee combo behaves like aoe splitter and distraction. When Grenadiers attack cavs, the archers will be unharmed and vice versa, so you can dps with either of them.
Finally, add 5 mangonels so you can 1 hit or finish them off easily. Think of it this way:
- A mangonel is as effective as roughly 6 grenadiers (mango has higher aoe), 6x168 = 1008 res
- A mango cost only 600 resources
Thus you’ll still have an effective answer to that if you can match their investment.
You must be joking. Ater first attack you will have no archer left and after second no cav. Have you even played against mass grenadier. Even if you manage to kill some of them they can easily replace the lost one as these are dirt cheap.
I tested with french knights + archers, 70 grenadiers vs 40 archers + 30 knights and 5 mangonels. For other civs you need to do your own test to find the right number of knights with regards to the number of grenadiers, and for archer preferably a minimum of 30.
The key is once you have killed a certain number of grenadiers (below their critical mass) they become non threatening and you can easily finish them off.
And if they replace you should keep up as well!
I actually think it’s impossible to every beat them in a straight up fight, but from what I’ve found a mix of Knights and archers works the best, it worked quite well as the HRE with some prelates with the archers and the tech that let’s them inspire troops.
I have 3 rules when fighting grenadiers:
Don’t fight in choke point where your melee cant surround them.
Don’t fight grenadiers on wall
Don’t engage when you dont have critical mass and right composition => you will lose all army, meanwhile they would still be healthy.
Grenadier in this current form, is the type of unit that can replace an entire army, just like French Knights.
Fighting these types you need combined arms, but it is possible to beat them in mass if you avoid the above 3 scenarios.
Now don’t get it wrong, I’d prefer to see the unit getting reworked. Until then, this is the best response we have.
ever try to throw a stone farther than a bow? Hercules Gernadiers.
How the heck does a Chinese player defend 1v3 AND still make it to imperial twice then make 70 grenadiers? I had a teammate once who went straight to grenadiers. He attacked at around 22 minutes, but had very little military before then. Yes, it was then unstoppable, but it’s the opponents’ fault for letting him spend 22 minutes without any military.
Yeah grenadiers are definitely becoming an issue in larger team games where resources aren’t so much of an issue and the whole’ don’t let them reach that dynasty ’ argument struggles to hold any water.
It’s exactly the opponent’s fault for they were 3vs1 and didn’t figured out how to kill grenadiers. If they knew how to make the right counter, it’s 0% chance for 70 grenadiers in a 1vs3 situation
The way I deal with this is to make a tuning pack that nerfs Grenadiers specifically for when I wanna play FFA Nomad (reduce its base dmg, HP, and area dmg by 33% (quite too much, but really noone in any FFA lobby wanna face this unit)). It also contains a slight nerf to NoB (33% area dmg reduced to tune it down to mangonel level).
You could try to argue and find the best unit composition to counter, but keep in mind that the Chinese can also do the same. When I play super late game china, Spearman, Grenadier, and Bombard are always my choice,(and may b a few knight for raiding).
A: Fix unit to be balanced
B: No, it’s opponent fault
Some changes can be interesting: grenadiers can not attack in one tile. (like scirms)
To make unit more unique and situantionsl.
But no…it’s opponent fault…
pop limit is not equal.
to fully upgrade kts + archers + upgrades for mangonel - insane amount of resources.
And we even did not start to play the game “what if it’s 15pikes + 70grenadiers or 30pikes + 55grenadiers”
Very interesting game(no): What if.
You searching useless answers on stupid question.
Is it 100% broken? No.
Is it OP? Yes.
Should it be more balanced? Yes
Let’s rephrase that:
“My whole team 3v1 this guy’s knights with archers, and we can’t beat him. This game is insanely broken”
“My whole team 3v1 this guy’s scissor with papers, and we all lost. This game is insane!”
Are Grenadiers OP? Yes.
Do they need reworks? Yes
Currently, is there a workaround? Yes
We can’t 3v1 this guy, do we need to gg (gitgud)? Yes
You misteken.
in aoe2 eagles is OP for noobs… but the answer is simple: champions or kts.
here in your paper/scissors example: the answer is stone with small scissors and siege.
there was an old joke. One need to 320 scirms to kill everything in aoe2.
(the pop os 200).
With grenadiers you need only 50-60 to kill everything.
The real problem is the same as siege - radius damage. if it scales - it kill everything.
It scales with number of units because of aoe dmg.
Playing FFA has been turned into a race of who spams the grenadiers first.
Played multiple FFA along this week, myself using chineese also, and had to turn my strategy to mass grenadiers also, because everything you can build is beaten by them.
In FFA is usual that there is minimum 2 chineese that are willing to mass grenadiers or mass firelancers.
I am starting to see a lot of “no chineese” games right now…
This is all about balance, you can’t have a unit in a game that breaks the game at any point.
Let’s make 70 of a unit and then WIN. That’s about as unbalanced a game can be., Remember waaaaaaaaaay back when all you had to do was make mech in Starcraft and nothing else. No one liked it.
Also the developers need to figure out that you can’t balance a game based on what the pros are doing, because your player base doesn’t play those tactics and doesn’t have the APM to even go thru with most. So what the developers do is make changes based on what the pros are doing and guess what that makes the game unbalanced for the rest of the 98% of players and that’s when players stop playing and start to just watch and the game dies a slow death.
the pro scene should be completely different than the base because this is not Starcraft, each map is generated unique. you can’t balance this game based on what happens in the pro scene and that’s the big mistake being made in this franchise, according to me. I have played hundreds of games as Delhi and I can tell when certain balance changes are just ■■■■■■■ it up for the regular player. the pros rejoice and the players leave… not great for the game.
I love this game i will keep on playing but the matchups are getting shittier well because the player base is so ■■■■■■… cuz the game balance is non existent.
S tier tournament just finished with the second place player complaining he lost to a bug… that’s the state of the game. I watched every game in the tournament and even the casters are amazed at the bugs and the unbalance. The Tower of Victor was used absolutely amazingly in this tourney right?
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Remember when people used excuse to defend FLs and granadiers being late-game units and never appearing in 1v1. We are now seeing chinese getting to granadiers in 1v1 pro scene as well. And they can get within 20 mins.
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Grenadiers should be changed, pretty much everyone agrees. But how can you seriously say things like, “my enemy had 80 grenadiers and 10 mangonels lost to them”? why not complain about “my opponent has 50 knights and my 10 spearman lost to them” too?
Please be reasonable, you should be comparing a group of grenadiers to a group of equivalent resources and considering unit hard and soft counters.
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