How to give purpose to Steppe lancers

I think I wrote about this before but I suggested giving SL anti cavalry armour so they can act a bit like infantry since they really bad Vs gold units even when massed and at least they would be good Vs pykes camels and skirms.

It already is? Paladin is 30 sec seconds, SL is just 24 seconds and ESL is lower at 20

Yes. The tech tree and the HP explicitly state that it is a light cavalry unit.

Light Cavalry = low HP (comparable to heavy infantry units), low attack, no melee armor, fast movement speed

All of this fit the Steppe Lancer. The extra range means it has to lose 1 pierce armor (light cavalry have 2, sl have 1) just like the Kamayuk loses 1 pierce armor over the Champion

Since the unit costs gold, it can have good attack in the Elite version without balance issues. and that’s what we see. Light Cavalry upgrade to Hussar doesn’t give an attack boost but the Elite Steppe Lancer gives +2 attack.

Sure it is tough, but a Knight is a general combat specialist and a Steppe Lancer is a raiding unit at its core.

Only in Imperial Age. In Castle Age, food = gold approximately.

Agreed. The SL has had so many nerfs, that now a reduction of gold cost seems viable. If doing 35G, it is okay. If doing 30G, reduce the attack of both forms by 1.

Rather than thinking of Knights or SL, think of Scouts into SL rush. Both units are too fast to avoid unwanted battles, like those with camels.

The SL are trained significantly faster, making 2 stable SL production comparable to 3 stable Knight production. That on its own is like saving 87 wood per stable.

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And that’s where you guys are going wrong. It is a light cavalry unit. Comparison to the Knight is meaningless. The only similarity both units have is costing the same type of resources and being unlocked in the Castle Age. Going by this logic, one could compare Camels and Knights too.

They are actually much better at destroying buildings. They have almost the same attack as Throwing Axemen. So aside from Palisades, you can destroy houses and other low armor buildings as well.

In stead to fill their role of raiding units, we give them a slight bonus damage to civilian units - villagers, trade carts, fishing ships, transport ships and trade cogs.

Interesting idea.

What about tweak them in order to transform them into a anti-pikes/infantry chivalry?
I think it makes sense because of their core ability (+1 range), their speed, and actually they are not good riding because their lack of pierce armor.
Plus, it would be a good support unit for knights, keeping the “full horsemen” feel that Tartars, Cumans, and Mongols I think should have.
With this, these civ’s stables would have “speacialized” counter for archers (Light Chivalry line), Chivalry (Camel line) and infantry (SL). The Knight still would be the multiprupose and the strongest stable’ unit.
Maybe doing some of the changes below (not all, just the necesaries):

-Change armor to +1/0 (+2/0 Elite)
-50% reduced damage bonus from pikes
-Bonus against Pikes (+2 and +4 for Elite version)

The idea is not to make them into pikes eater, just, give them margin to take fights with pikes when the numers are similar (something impossible with any generic chivalry unit).
I know somebody will say that you can micro, but being reasonably, microing with only 1 range is not worth it

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Light cav and Hussar are just better and do the same while being affected by the same civ bonuses/UTs as well. So I feel like Steppe lancers should have bonuses against some kind of units, for example siege and villagers so they’re specialized. Other options are having bonuses against Eagles, like someone mentioned already, or scout cavalry line.

What do you mean? Light Cav against pikes?

Was just replying to the post in general, I think them being stronger against pikes sounds weird and unnecessary

Idk, as you say, light cav can do it for cheap.

It is kind of logic… larger spear win haha

You probably could have many options

I think it should be some kind of cheaper-than-knights glass cannon, give them charge or reducing RoF or adding base attack are good options… that way they would be better in everything a husar does but not durable as knights… maybe we could see a CA, SL combo

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I think give it +1 pierce armor and bonuses to raiding. To me the Steppe Lancer is trying to be the opposite of the Battle Elephant. Meaning while the Battle Elephant is like a slower, more powerful, more expensive Knight; the Steppe Lancer is like a faster, weaker, less expensive Knight. But the Battle Elephant has a unique battle mechanic (Trample damage) and bonus damage (Buildings) to further specialize it from the Knight. The Steppe Lancer has the unique battle mechanic (+1 range) but is lacking the bonuses to further specialize it from the Knight. And so I think the bonuses should be vs. Villagers, Monks, and conversions, which in combination with +1 pierce armor might make the Steppe Lancer like a better Light Cavalry.

Actua[quote=“Martinurello, post:45, topic:102479”]
I think it makes sense because of their core ability (+1 range), their speed, and actually they are not good riding because their lack of pierce armor.
Plus, it would be a good support unit for knights, keeping the “full horsemen” feel that Tartars, Cumans, and Mongols I think should have.
With this, these civ’s stables would have “speacialized” counter for archers (Light Chivalry line), Chivalry (Camel line) and infantry (SL). The Knight still would be the multiprupose and the strongest stable’ unit.
Maybe doing some of the changes below (not all, just the necesaries):
[/quote]

Actually, I like this line of thinking

I have a crazy idea. What do you think about giving them one additional range? They can keep the gold cost and the weak stats.

That is literally what I said in this post but ok. Except having 2 bonuses against pikes which feels a bit too much

Now I read you, I think they still should to be weak vs camels… Maybe don’t give them any armor, but bonus attack against infantry, or just reducing the damage from pikes’ bonus between 30-50%

Didnt we already have a long discussion about this? what has changed since then?
My suggestions from the last discussion:
Making the Steppe lancer a raiding unit:

Making the Steppe lancer anti archer cav (not a big fan anymore of that idea, since melee pathfinding has vastly improved since then and made knights pretty balanced against archers):

Making the Steppe lancer a rewarding micro intensive unit: