How to strengthen China？ I think this approach can be a starting point for modifying gameplay
- Buff Granaries to be worth using. Wood cost from 250 wood to 75 wood. Gather rate buff from 10% to 15%
- Bugfix Pagodas: Now grant + 100 gold per minute and 100 wood, food, stone per minute like its supposed to. Currently you don’t gain any bonus gold. You must gain a total of 200 gold, 100 wood, food, stone per minute
- reduce the cost of 2nd Landmark in Age III and Age IV by 25% to 50%
- revert nerf to supervision
- revert nerf to Clocktower, allow supervision again
- revert nerf to ancient techniques
- reduce the cost of faster attack speed tech on bombards to be the same cost like Rus. Because Rus pay half price for exactly the same tech. Thats not balanced at all
you just want to change china by data. i think this game should be changed by another way.Repeated data adjustments are very bad for players. Gameplay changes keep the game fresh, like LOL.you right,but no just data.
I boring for this game.
hell yea brodder. China needs buffs
Ah yes the classic.
- Reduce cost of all second landmarks by 200%
- Granaries should have same buff as english increasing with each age. Its now english baby.
- Supervisors should completely remove the training time.
- Villager construction time reduced by 500%
- Clocktowers bonus increased from 50% to 200%
Allow 5 total Imperial officials; allow both the Imperial Academy and the Imperial Palace to create IO’s
(note: this will alleviate the TC and thereby speed up overall feudal and up gameplay )
zhuge nu range is increased from 4.5 to 5 tiles. Also in Imperial they get a unique tech that adds +1 range and 2 additional burst shots (for a total of 5 burst shots).
(note: the zhuge nu is a special anti light infantry range unit that excels in light infantry combat but because of the long shooting animation and slow walk speed of 1.12 tiles/s and short range it forces this unit to be stationary more than any other range unit. The range increase is have this unit compete vs other range units both early and late. The attack increase is to make this unit viable outside of early feudal in a similar way that Longbow are viable thru out the ages.)
Fire lancer movement speed increase to 1.62 tiles/s base speed up from 1.5tiles/s.
(note: these are suppose to be in and out raiders…but they can’t run anywhere? While this will make them fast units they lack any armor and have fairly low base melee damage after the charge damage. This will continue to facilitate the in-and-out playstyle of this unit.)
Nest of Bee’s splash damage reduced by 15% but accuracy improves up to 93%+.
(note: NOB in large numbers are almost as bad as original mag…but by reducing their splash this will resolve the same late game issue of this unit. But by increasing the accuracy it will still make this unit deadly in small numbers even vs armored units I.E 2 volleys of 80 damage with 93%+ average would net 148 siege dmg!)
Granary base 15% but give a Yuan dynasty upgrade (100w 250g) that upgrades the granary buff to 25%; also granaries buffs no longer stack (if they let it stack with a 25% buff granaries would be stronger than Imperial English farms @ an avg of 42% for the 36 farms…).
(note: the granary is a cute design but the open space it requires alone makes this building extremely difficult to be worth the trouble. Removing the stacking effect and improving the gather rate will make this building instantly functional in feudal. And having a Yuan Dynasty upgrade will enhance the lackluster Yuan Dynasty)
Pagoda now generate a base tax of 50 gold/min (on an actual 60s interval) an addition to its normal function of 100g/min for housing a relic and 50 food, wood, stone per min.
(note: Yuan dynasty is very underwhelming. This buff would further enhance this dynasty and building. The current 3-4 gold tax/min generation is utterly useless period…)
Spirit Way now gives 30% cheaper Dynasty units and 15% production speed and the aura IS A RECTANGLE.
(note: who’s dumb idea was it to make a circle aura for china?? but a rectangular FOR EVERY OTHER FREAKING CIV??? Also changing the aura to a rectangle will allow us to fit more buildings within the aura. The 15% production is a bonus since the discount only counts towards dynasty units and unlike any other factions we don’t get the discount from any other buildings.)
SImilar idea, granaries increase resources drop off by 20% also allows stacking with IOs, which is still balanced when compared to Aachen Chappel buff or English OPclosure farms.
I also feel like Yuan should rewards Military upgrades rather than eco upgrade because an eco upgrade that is gated behind Yuan isn’t worth it.
I agree with this change but:
Disagree. Zhuge-nu easily beat archers with equal resources. They can even take knights. The only effective counter to them are horsemen in feudal. With mangonel nerf they are even bigger problem. They are not competing with long-bows. I totally disagree with any range increase.
Not again! Fire lancers counter ranged infantry. Knights or at-least horsemen should be able to easily catch-up to this unit. There are literally no other counter to this unit.
This isn’t English. Just because you make another landmark shouldn’t just give you the best uniqueness of other civs. China has already other bonuses.
Same point. French late-game is bad but this single cost reduction is huge boost and carries most of late-game. Just taking the best buffs of all civs caz its china is stupid. China has its own buffs and gets some in each for dyntasy but not enough that they can just replace other civs in that bonus.
First, i think you could keep the bonuses from the previous dynasty.
It’s a bit stupid to pay 1200/600 to go from song to yuan, and loses the -30% rate in villager production from song. I get the idea was to make choices, but a +15% movespeed for 1200/600 is expansive enough, and i’ve already paid 400/200 for my -30% bonus. After it’s sure, that when you are in ming, grenadiers are really strong, and if they have +15% movespeed and +10% more hp, it might be scary. But maybe just nerf a bit grenadiers.
But realistically, outside teamgames, you don’t even go to yuan dynasty, because it’s too expansive.
After yeah, granaries and pagoda needs some buffs, they are supposed to give you something, and they are like a bad idea to build them.
Granary’s only interest is you can fit 12 farms around them (instead of 8 with a mill), so you can put an IO to surpervise them.
But if you do the maths. 10%x12+12x20%= +3.6 farms. But you pay 250 to get +3.6 farms = 3.6x75 = 270 wood, so you won 20 wood, only after spending 250+12x75=1150 Wood, and you immobilize an IO for that.
Same than previously, in 1v1, you never use granaries, it’s only a lategame thing to put less villagers on Food when you are at 200/200, makes 3 granaries close together, and put 3 IO to surpervise.
Reducing the cost from 250 to at least 150 would be reasonnable honestly.
Pagoda is even worst you pay 150 Wood to just get +20 per min compared to relics in a monastery with Tithe barns. I think a relic placed in a pagoda should act just like a relic placed in a monastery (100 gold per minute, and 30 Wood/Stone/Food when Tithe barns is researched) + the 50gold, 25 extra Food/Wood/Stone per 30s.
Also something annoying is when you research wheelbarrow, the carry capacity is increased and as a result you collect less taxes. A tree that has 150 Wood, it means 15 gold from taxes normally, but 10 if you researched wheelbarrow. No good idea for a solution, but i find this annoying.
Chinese main here: that’s way too overpowered. We are talking about a bump of 3% win rate, not 15%.
I like the suggestions and I think they are reasonable, albeit they might be slightly too powerful with the IO production in the landmark. Right now Chinese only needs bugfixes and a better/cheaper grenary. Also fix the grenadiers, they are too powerful. Maybe introduce a new dynasty 4 building.
The nerfs in the latest patch are really hard to understand, many of them feels irrational instead of logical.
Nerfing IO to 150% from 200%.
This aspect has always been balanced before. Why would there is a need for it to be nerfed? Chinese were bottom tier even with the original bonus, I don’t see how this help “balancing” them.
Something needs to be done to the clocktower landmark, for a landmark it is really underpowered at the moment. Just let IO supervision it with 100% instead of the full bonus so it acts like 2 siege workshops, which is perfectly acceptable.
Granary is such a scam and we almost never see them being used.
With 750 wood, it is better to just build 10 more farms and get much better food output than the bonus provides.
The problem with Dynasty is the cost of unlocking them, which buildings and units gated behind. Now the buildings and units (pagoda, fire lancer, granary) are either nerfed/underpowered, it makes so much less sense to unlock them. And since China is weak in early feudal, it doesn’t hurt to have cost reduction to unlock Song, Yuan and Ming (20% 30% 50% reduction for 2nd landmark)
Now that would mean grenadiers will gain popularity, and it’s also true they are OP. Just reduce their AOE like the nerfed mangonel, but not too much that makes them utterly useless like the fire lancers and that would be perfect.
Nope. Chinese have needed a fix to Tax collection ever since the game was released.
The biggest issue of tax collection still remains. It has not been adressed at all. Even though I offered a solution in stress test already.
All of us could have been playing a game where Tax collection is less of a gimmick and works properly similar to how Rus get reliable gold income from hunting cabins.
Here is my solution to fix Tax collection and make it much more reliable, posted for probably the 5th time atleast.
- Make Keeps act as drop-off points for Tax gold, just like Town Centers and the Age II Landmark
- Players always build forward Keeps to secure ressource locations like stone and gold but are unable to collect Tax from it since its too far away from TC’s
- This will allow players to collect Tax from mining and lumber camps next to Keeps aswell as forward production buildings next to Keeps, which is impossible unless you build a TC nearby (which would be a waste of ressources)
- Congratz, players can now enjoy a steady and reliable Tax income instead of only gaining Tax from buildings near their TC’s
Alright Relic doesn’t like to do a whole bunch of changes all at once. So let’s just start with this
Granaries buff goes up from 10% to 12%
granaries cost reduced from 250 wood to 200 wood
Zhuge nu range increase from 4.5 to 5 tiles
Village allotted goes up by 1 (from 3 to 4)
Village cost is reverted back to 100 wood (down from 125 wood).
THAT’S it!! see what this does? These changes will directly impact feudal age play
the Zhuge Nu change might be too powerful, since they already shred through weak units. The problem with knights + archers or MAA as both the scariest matchups are also not adressed with this.
I would rather stay with the economic bonuses + fixes mentioned by you and @Zer0pntEnergy. 4 villages might also be too much with the cost reduction.
I dont have issue with other changes but Zhuge nu are too strong. In my opinion their range needs to be reduced to 4. They easily beat archer 1 on 1. They can also kill heavy units like MAA and Knights and are cheaper and easier to mass due to imperial official.
You are absolutely insane. Other civs have to pay hundreds of gold and food or wood to upgrade, and you want them to have this accessible PLUS 75w cost 15% upgrades you can stack? If you really think china needs this I suggest you just learn the game instead. Play a different civ and you’ll see you still cant get higher than gold or bronze or wherever you are.
IF he’s gold he’s a decent player since the majority of the players are below silver!
But I agree he’s suggestions are too radical.
Now back to mine!!! longbow knights are cost efficient and do not have any CHEAP/as cost-efficient counters!! xbow/maa? NOPE the knights will thrash the maa and the lb will pick the xbows apart. spearman/maa?? somewhat better IFFF you can force fight ON TOP of the longbows… but more likely at high levels ppl know how to micro so that’s unlikely (unless you have sprint maybe). KNights/maa? yes but that’s not cheap at all… knights/xbow? sure again not cheap and still will suffer to being out ranged by the longbows.
I would like china to also have this incredibly strong combo of zhuge knights; but they need RANGE in order to pull it off; at least standard 5 range.
longbows will not pick the xbows apart when they got maa infront. The longbows will be firing at the maa. You can micro this , but it would likely be insane overkill at this point of game, and an autoloss. Sorry but there is no magical composition you can build that will be complete counter to a balanced army.