The Byzantine mercenary lineup is another old topic. With the increasing number of new civs, tweaking the types of mercenaries available to Byzantium is definitely a viable option.
As for the TK, I’m not just talking about slapping a TK unit into the HRE roster. I’m proposing a completely new variant built around the TK with fresh mechanics. After all, the HRE’s economy is already incredibly strong, which is exactly why the devs are always so hesitant to give them new units.
Yes, therefore nerf the eco if you must, but give the civ something that makes it an actual civ instead of this generic and boring disgrace of what it wants to be. The whole civ was never well designed and is built around inspiration and landmarks and doesn’t really exist as an unique civ outside of that. Aachen has been for the longest time paramount for HRE to not only be powerful as it was first and foremost needed to make HRE viable at all. Compute that. That tells you everything about the civ design. This stupid landmark elevates the eco power of HRE almost to the max in feudal already, which ofc leads to a lot of problems. But if you want military upgrades and a civ that feels at least a bit unique when you build its army, you have to go Meinwerk, because Aachen leaves you with the absolute worst army any RTS has ever seen. That’s why I never go Aachen, even if it is the smarter choice. I absolute hate losing out on techs, especially techs that are as rare as they are for HRE.
The landmark dependency to actually get anything is crazy with this civ. I talked about Aachen and Meinwerk, but then there is Burgrave… Another LM that is aimed at offsetting the HRE shortcomings of no unit discounts, no production bonuses, no building discounts… They have nothing, so it’s okay to give them this LM, which would be heavily broken for other civs. I don’t like that landmark, because it incentivises all-ins and is eventually just a bunch of barracks. I really dislike that. The charge dmg buff for infantry also feels totally useless, I have never noticed it actually doing anything. I guess it does something, but it is not effective. It has little impact on the game. Same as the OotD Warhorse tech (or Zornhau or this stupid spear torch aoe upgrade), which is supposed to be a tech like Chivalry, a tech one would talk about, but nobody ever talks about this tech, because it makes almost zero difference. HRE and OotD is full of these empty things. And as always for HRE I am pretty sure that the charge buff also ignores bonus dmg of units and only affects base dmg. But I could be wrong there, it’s annoying to test that.
Oh, and then they have no bonus whatsoever for multi TC, so let’s give them a LM that is worth several TCs and make it cheaper to get to imp quicker, so they can catch up in vil pop there. Again a terrible design. As it is also the cause why HRE seems to not be allowed to have actual nice things. And should that be the case… Okay, keep it that way for people who enjoy playing such an awfully designed civ that is all about eco and generic kamikaze units. But then make Meinwerk and Elzbach proper landmarks to really and notably and fundamentally improve the army. The reward you get for missing out on Swabia is very low. Elzbach… That LM helps you turtle, fortify your position, build more towers and zerg your way through with masses of pathetic units and a lof of culverins. It improves the awful imp gameplay of that civ even further instead of giving this civ something interesting and versatile. And we both agree that the BR isn’t it. This turtle zerging is the only way you can win in imp and it is the absolute worst experience I have ever made in any RTS. As I said, I studied history, I know a lot about HRE and that is probably also why I cannot appreciate or like anything really about this civ. From my pov, pretty much all of it is either wrong or realized in a very poor and “uninspired” fashion like the LK.
Besides, HRE doesn’t even have the best eco in imp. Not even by a long shot. There are so many civs that are better and also have a much much much better army. I guess GH is the craziest example. They got very powerful units and synergies plus they can crank out units forever. On equal skill level, it is close to impossible for HRE to beat GH. Or Macedonians. Or whatever. And should you win despite of your deficits, you did so by massing tons of boring units, which then leads to a terrible K/D and is just so boring to play. It’s disrespectful to the civ.
In my wildest dreams I could not have imagined that this new patch would actually nerf HRE and give it only useless stuff. I am still in shock tbh. All the while Abba get some braindead easy buffs to their lategame, because they are all tied to the amount of buildings and in imp you can easily have 70 buildings. No problem. So they simply need to play their civ and get strong passive bonuses that not only increase Camel damage but also their bonus damage and the dmg of all melee infantry by 10 or 15%, depending on the wings chosen. That is a permanent inspired warriors buff with the old values for all melee infantry. Granted they don’t get 1/1 armor, but they have 15% extra hp, 300+ hp Ghulams, Phalanx spears, machine gun archers and Camel armor aura that gives 2/2 armor to all infantry instead. Just like that they get a huge buff to their imp, when they already were much better militarily than HRE. And then look at what HRE got again. It doesn’t make any sense. Plus the Abba eco in imp is on par with HRE. The balance design in this game is so asymmetrical and biased, at least that is what I can take away from all that.
As for the TK, I’m not just talking about slapping a TK unit into the HRE roster. I’m proposing a completely new variant built around the TK with fresh mechanics.
A civ built around the TK would be the Teutonic Order, that’s the only option. And as much as I would love to get that civ, I simply doubt that we will ever get it. I just have that feeling that we will never see it. AoE2 teases you with cool Teutonic units in campaigns, but you cannot play them yourself except the TK. It’s similar with AoE4, only that the one civ that got the one Teutonic unit from AoE2 that is playable is freaking French speaking KT and not HRE.
Eventually what I want is that HRE stops being the by far worst designed civ in the game. It stagnates pretty much for 5 years, which isn’t really true, because stagnating would mean they’d still be at least A tier. But they are D tier overall and F tier in imp. This civ offers so much, has such a rich history with so many great possibilites and influences for gameplay and this game made literally nothing out of it. In terms of historical accuracy this civ is nothing but a disgrace. No other civ is even remotely as far away from what it wants to be as HRE is.
First of all, I disagree with some of the ideas in the post: I think the new technologies (Lens) and University Bonuses (Bursae) are great.
On the other hand, when it comes to balance, that’s another story.
Since 2025, HRE has started to decline in the Top 10 rankings. It’s not the worst civ, but it’s curious that it fell from Top S to Top B or Top C, depending on the streamer.
There are many reasons for this. I would say mainly that many new civs, new content, and new mechanics have caused the civ to stagnate in its familiar gameplay and lack counters for certain situations.
Regarding how to improve its situation, I’ve already discussed this several times:
Add Landsknechts PIKEMAN and Landsknecht ARQUEBUSIER units to imperial Age (IV). Because they need a good anticavalry counter for War Elephants, and Super-Heavy cavalry (Cataphracts, Slachzta Cavalry) in Late game.
Preserve the normal Landsnecht but change its name to “Landsnecht Doppelsoldier”, as a support unit for aoe damage. They can share a sinergy with Landsknecht Pikeman, like actual landsknecht.
Add an extra unit in the Feudal Age, or improve the Men-at-Arms to make it a Unique Unit. Ministerial officials, for example, would be good.
Now, if we want to ask why the Landksnecht was the only unique military unit in the HRE for several years, I have a few assumptions:
“When the game was released, there was no HRE campaign, nor an Abbasid campaign, and these units didn’t even appear in the early campaigns.”
If you create a campaign scenario where a specific unit is meant to “shine,” you should test it so that it also stands out in the game. This happens with:
In the case of the HRE (Hungarian Royal Army), since there was no campaign for them, or they had short levels, they didn’t consider whether the unique unit they were given, the Landsknecht, was truly overpowered or had a terrible flaw; it wasn’t tested. Nor was it tested whether the bonuses given to these civilizations would work well in a campaign scenario.
On the other hand, in the Mongol and Rus’ campaigns, they used the HRE as a placeholder civilization for the Lithuanians, Poles, and Hungarians, and they didn’t give them any extra unique units. These civilizations only serve to be easy targets for Mongol horse archers, offering no resistance whatsoever.
Therefore, if your presence in a campaign is going to be like a “placeholder” civilization whose sole purpose is to be “easily destroyed” by the Mongols, since you have nothing original to oppose them, obviously the same thing could happen in multiplayer if you don’t add more unique units. Worse, because it’s a placeholder, it didn’t have Landsknecht units, since these are properly Germanic, not Polish or Lithuanian.
In AoE3, there’s a Zweihander Landsknecht as a unit for the Germanic peoples. This is where the idea for AoE4 came from, or at least that’s what I think.
That would be fine, but it seems the developers forced themselves into another idea: “All civilizations must have only 3 unique units + early units for balance reasons.” Hence, many civilizations were limited in their creativity due to this flawed, misguided idea of balance. Here’s an image to illustrate this.
In the case of the HRE, it was: 1) Prelate (I); 2) Early Men-at-Arms (II); 3) Lansknecht (III)
For this reason alone, to force this balance, the HRE didn’t have any more unique units. This was problematic for several reasons:
The early Men-at-Arms is a unit with very limited roles. In the Feudal Age, if the enemy civilization doesn’t have early knights, it can be very effective for a Men-at-Arms rush. However, in the Castle Age (III), it has too many counters available to all civilizations: Knights/Lancers (1), Crossbowmen (2), Springalds (3), War Elephants (4), other unique Heavy Infantry (5), Camel Riders (6).
It’s preferable to mass-produce Knights in the Castle Age, as they fulfill the tank role better and are also faster, able to escape crossbowmen and other counters.
The only advantage of the HRE is that its Men-at-Arms have an extra bonus against heavily armored units, but it’s not really enough to defeat Imperial Age (IV) Heavy Cavalry Unique Units
The only reason the HRE was good, it must be admitted, was its economic bonuses, its macro, one of the best in the game.
The HRE’s economy is the only reason it was considered top-tier by pros for so many years. A civilization with a +40% collection bonus since the Dark Ages (I) is quite significant. In fact, build a 2nd TC was questionable, and it was preferable to create more “prelates.”
On the other hand, in 2021, it was a Relic-Picker civilization along with Rus’: no other civilization could steal relics as quickly as they did (FC + Reignitzs); in fact, they did it faster than Rus’.
But everything has changed in the present days:
So, getting all the relics is no longer a defining characteristic of the HRE. Also, those civs can make a FC, steal the relic, but even if they didnt get enough relics, is not game over.
There is another problem: HRE has receipt many nerf of this charasteristic:
Reignitz:
On the other hand, there are civilizations that can now perform an Eco-Boom and have more than 5 or 6 unique units (ZhuXiLegacy, Japan).
The HRE has lost its unique edge, and by a landslide.
And so here we are. The HRE isn’t bad, it must be admitted, but it could be better, or have more options to counter early rushes, or fight against War Elephants and ultra-heavy Cavalry in the Imperial Age. In an Eco-Boom, Fast Imperial is also a viable option, but if they are rushed before they can implement it, well, in that situation they will have serious problems.
Yes, the HRE needs more love…it’s the most meh civilization of all the ones currently available…the Abbasids, who were the second most meh, at least received a rework and 3 new unique technologies…the HRE gets, at most, one and be grateful…the next Viking DLC will bring more UUs to the game, I hope the HRE at least receives another UU, and if they add 2 UUs at once, even better…in the previous patch, the Rus’ received the Halberdier Militia and the Handcannoner Militia…
What is great about them? They incentivise rushing to imp and going for the Universtiy quickly (because of this useless 30 pop stuff and the discount apparently). But that’s just not how the game works. You do not rush to imp and then rush a university. That’s not smart, there are other priorities. So when you build a university, you should already have 200 pop through houses. There is litereally zero use for this 30 pop stuff.
The +2 LOS does what exactly? HRE has many problems and they all lie with the army. Vision is not an issue. As Beasty said “it’s nice, but useless”. It’s a bad tech mainly because it is absolutely not what HRE needed. It doesn’t adress the fundamental flaws and weaknesses of this outdated civ, but give it another tech that just isn’t it.
The discount… Yeah, it’s a discount. Hard to argue against a discount. But is it what HRE needed? Not at all, Does it improve HRE imp? No, not at all. It’s just something that is supposed to line up with this terrible rush to imp Swabia stuff, which only exists because HRE has no bonus to vil production or multi TC. They need Swabia usually as a villager catch up mechanic. So all these useless changes only put emphasis on the one playstyle HRE is doomed to go for. And then it doesn’t even make sense, because as I said you do not rush a university. Ever. It’s not smart. A university usually comes in after 10+ minutes in imp. And then you get your generic upgrades faster. While other civs can actually scale tremendously and synergize, HRE is stuck with this basic and terrible army. Getting these basic upgrades for cheaper maybe helps for a very short window in terms of a timing push, but I am already grasping at straws here. It doesn’t help you one bit against all the super bonuses and power creep mechanics from the other civs. This discount is nice to have, not useless per se, but absolutely nothing that actually improves the HRE.
Don’t get me wrong, I am really happy that the devs know about Bursae. Those were student communes during the first universites in the HRE. And then the devs apparently thought “let’s give them 30 pop, that makes historical sense”… Yeah, this is exactly not what I mean, when I complain about the lack of historical accuracy for HRE. I don’t want historically accurate stuff that eventually doesn’t do anything for the civ in game. I want history that is translated into gameplay. And this pop stuff is history without thinking about the gameplay aspect. And this is why I say that the devs treat HRE like a stepchild. It can’t have nice things, they are very stricts with it, and that what is allowed is nothing the stepchild can appreciate. It’s bad parenting, if we wanna be stupid about this.
I really like your suggestions. And I agree that the introduction of the DLC civs has made the HRE to successively fall off. That’s nothing too crazy considering the progression of the game. But what would have needed to happen then, is to slowly update HRE to match the new power levels in the game. But it simply doesn’t happen. And I know that it could happen, because the devs just buffed the Abba army probably into overpoweredness. Out of nothing it feels like. The Abba army buffs are absolutely insane. And when I compare the HRE changes to that, I simply feel like I live in the wrong reality. That something just isn’t right. It makes so absolutely zero sense to me. Especially when the devs also nerfed inspired warriors… This is the craziest change of them all. They make a terrible mechanic slightly less terrible (it’s still terrible), but nerf it at the same time because.. Why exactly? HRE, as you said, has fallen down. And I would definitely put them in D tier. And their imp in F tier. The only pro that acted like these HRE changes were great, was Corvinus. I don’t know why he reacted like that, as it makes no sense, but he reacted positively. Any other pro was like “wtf is that? This is useless”. At least the ones I have seen so far. And nobody, literally nobody understood the nerf to inspired warriors. It may have to do with OotD, but even then it doesn’t really make sense. Why should the worst mechanic in the game that after the change is still the worst mechanic in the game require a nerf? It only needed buffs, not a nerf.
Wow, that’s a really great assumption and summary and I think I agree with everything. Thank you very much for this and all the effort you’ve put into that.
But one thing is there that I’d like to add, which is also confusing me to this day: Why does every civ in the game that also exists in AoE2, get their unique from AoE2 unit except HRE and French? Now, French got a better deal instead. It was an improvement for them, so I guess that’s done. But for HRE it was a downgrade, which is funny since the TK in AoE2 is a lot of things, but not a very powerful unit. It’s a niche unit at best and easy to counter. So giving HRE a worse deal for unique units than in AoE2 was actually really hard. And then KT came out and they suddenly had both of the omitted units from AoE 2 French and HRE. The axe thrower is okay, I guess, because the Arbaletrier is the by far better unit. French are probably not sad about losing out on the throwing axemen, while gaining the Arbaletrier. But when I saw that KT got the Tk, I was like.. wtf devs, really? It annoyed me so hard, because it makes so very much no sense to me and is so disrespectful to the HRE civ fueling my notion that the devs treat it like an unwanted stepchild.
That’s also something that does my head in. HRE is I believe the only civ with a dedicated Religion tag. And yet, so many civs that have other strengths and focuses have so many better religious techs and units. All the Prelate is, is a cheaper monk that can inspire. That’s all there is to it. Otto Imams, which they can get in feudal already, are better. Warrior Monks are better. Dervishes are better. Delhi Scholars are better. I feel like none of the supposed HRE strengths is on a properly high level. They are not exceptional at anything, except for gaining pretty much all of their eco bonuses in feudal already. But that again makes them lose out on Meinwerk and 2 unique techs for military of the 4 techs they got altogether. In order to have a strong feudal eco, you have to lose out on 50% of your army uniqueness. 70% even, if you count the MAA techs only as one, since they both pretty much do the same thing (increase damage).
And HRE is not the best civ at picking up relics anymore. They were one of the best, but there are better ones now. And still, HRE is heavily reliant on getting relics. Which is great for their identity, but flawed and outdated, because they lose out on fundamental civ bonus, should they only get one relic or even none. They can only get relics in a good fashion, if they are really fast at it. But if they are not, they are not good at collecting them, because they are not good at protecting Prelates and Prelates are also not mounted.
This is exactly it. Thank you. I see that you know your stuff, are with the game for a long time and are able to make proper comparisons between the civs. Your comment was very refreshing to read. And I agree with pretty much everything you said. We probably don’t see eye to eye when it comes to the university stuff, but other than that it seems like we have a similar understanding of what is happening in this game and to HRE especially. Thank you again. 
Abba has gotten really powerful stuff. Little to nothing for their feudal struggle, but actually insane buffs to everything afterwards. And I hope you are right, because I do not really dare to hope anymore. The patch just came out and all I am about now is to wait for the next patch, since this one was such a disappointment for me as a HRE enthusiast and main for 5 years.
That’s hard to say. They are about to release the Spanish, which should bring some fresh ideas for infantry civs.
And, the current HRE and the OotD don’t offer much novelty. A 3-star Teutonic Knights civ would definitely be a viable option.
I would absolutely love that and I hope you are right and I am wrong.
In Age of Empires II, many civilizations were designed to represent ethnicities or races rather than specifically empires, kingdoms, or confederations.
Was a excuse to cover more years or even empires for some Civs (Sarracens = All islamics civs, LOL), because in that time, concepts like “Variants” didn´t exist yet.
AoE II
In the case of the Franks: They represent the Barbarian Franks (?-481 AD), the Frankish Kingdom (481-751), the Carolingian Empire (800-842), and the French Kingdom (900-1600).
In the case of the Teutons: They represent the Germanic peoples (?-800 AD), the Kingdom of East Francia (843-962), and the Holy Roman Empire (962-1500), as well as the Teutonic Order and its states.
Therefore, the Axe Thrower is from the Frankish and Carolingian period (700-900). This is also why the Franks have good melee infantry, instead of bad. That said, their design isn’t realistic at all; Franks never threw double-edged axes, much less ones that big.
The Teutonic Knight came with the name of the “Teutones” civilization, and yes, that’s the only reason. Also, because in the Barbarossa campaign there are several levels where you go to the Third Crusade, so a Crusader unit is appropriate.
Those were different times, and we could even justify the lack of significant differences between civilizations, both aesthetically and even with unique, anachronistic units in campaigns, because it was a 2D game with the technical limitations of the time, and we could use the “Suspension of Disbelief.”
AoE4
Now it’s different. Back in 2021, when AoE4 came out, if you were going to promote four historical campaigns with “documentaries” highlighting how incredible certain civilizations were in their cavalry (Royal Knights) or artillery (Royal Cannon), you had to showcase it in the levels with your own units and designs, especially if it was in 3D.
French They’re no longer Franks; now they represent the post-Carolingian medieval period. The nobles only fought on horseback and refused to dismount for anything, hence the Royal Knight. The crossbowman comes from the Hundred Years’ War period, when the “French-archer” corps were created to counter English archers (since continuing to hire Genoese was very expensive). However, many French preferred to use crossbows instead of bows because they hated the English and had a grudge against that weapon. The cannon… I suppose it’s based on the fact that the first French cannons were used to defeat the English in the final period of the war, and later also in the Italian Wars. I think it was called “Veugliere” but it was improved.
HRE The real name of the kingdom that existed in medieval Germany. They didn’t have the Teutonic Knight as a single unit, I suppose also for historical reasons: “These knights generally didn’t fight in HRE wars; in fact, they became independent and created their own kingdom in Estonia during the Baltic Crusades, where they waged war against Poland, Lithuania, and Rus’.” Instead, they considered the AoE3 version, with the Landsknecht and Zweihander.
Thank you for you summary and I agree with everything you said. But instead of reinventing the HRE civ compared to the AoE2 version, they made it worse and devoid of any proper historical accuracy and identity,while it is riddled with European medieval commonplaces and poorly designed unique units (this includes LK, BR and Prelate).
The Teutonic Order was deeply connected with the HRE. It was its own state, but it was somewhat of an extension of the HRE. The Teutonic Order also peaked after the KT were already disbanded, so making the Teutonic Knight (*) a HRE unit is very much justifiable. They also fought together with the HRE in the Hussite Wars. They were called the Catholic Crusader Forces. There is absolutely no reason why the TK should not be a HRE unit. When the Order was young and under KT leadership in Jerusalem, they were not that rich and powerful as they were after the KT disbanded. The TK therefore is more deserving to be a HRE unique unit than a KT unique unit. Also because of the voicelines. French speaking TKs is difficult, the Order spoke German. You can argue that the Teutonic Order under KT leadership probably spoke French as well (lingua franca), but the Teutonic Knight as he exists in AoE2 and 4 does not stem from the Order’s early beginnings, but from the Marienburg era. However, the code of this game has very deeply intertwined voice sets, so as I understand it is very complicated to give a civ voicelines from another civ. It’s harder than one might think. This might be a small argument, but it is still an argument for the TK as a HRE unit.
(*) which means Knight of the Teutonic Order or in German “Deutschritter”, since Teuton is somewhat the predecessor of the word “German”. In the medieval age the words theodiscus (ethnic/folkish) and teutonicus (belonging to the tribe of the Teutons (they fought the Romans in the 2nd century B.C.) were often confused, so eventually German and Teuton meant the same thing in the medieval age.
Then, when we look at what was possible and what was done eventually, we can state the following:
The HRE was famous for its prince elector system that also chose the Emperor and consisted of two groups. It was codified by Emperor Charles IV in the Golden Bull of 1356:
Spiritual Electors:
Secular Electors:
This should have been the foundation of the HRE civ. It should have been built around these electors that offer several bonuses and can be unlocked over the course of the game to eventually crown the Emperor which would either be a global permanent effect, a unit, a passive or whatever.
Then the eco should have been built around the Sales of Indulgences. Villagers pay for their sins and feel hopeful again (Bonus to gold generation and industriousness or smth like that). It was a scam, but it did work for a very long while, made the church and the Emperor very rich and the people believed in it until the Reformation in 1517 with Martin Luther et al, after which the Sales of Indulgences scam was abolished.
The Landsknecht should have been a purely Renaissance, meaning age IV unit that is not available in castle age, because there are only few units in this game that have Renaissance printed on their forehead like the Landsknecht. He should be core of the army material and have 3 versions: Doppelsöldner, Landsknecht and Landsknecht Arquebusier. They should be strong in formation and the face of the army. Teutonic Knights would be a great addition to that, they are also rather early Renaissance than late medieval age units (they are pretty much at the shift) and could also be available in castle age with castle age stats ofc. That could have been the HRE castle age unit. And the Black Rider should have been an imperial anti cav unit like the AoE3 Dragoon. That would have given him a clear role and he would probably be a useful unit now. Plus HRE should have gotten Archbishop units that are powerful mounted buff units that can also fight, similar to many other units in this game. But they should be limited or you can only have one at a time.
Stuff like marching drills and maces for MAA is okay, but a bigger focus on the HRE steel works, esp Solingen (it was famous in the whole of Europe for its blacksmithing craft and special weapons and armor), would also have been a nice addition. The unfortunately removed riveted chainmail tech was somethig that went in that direction. Steel Barding is the only thing that is a reminder of HRE steel manufacture, but it’s just not good enough to really give HRE an identity. In AoE 2 Teutons have FU Paladins (except for husbandry) and extra melee armor, which puts them in the top tier, with the lack of husbandry being their biggest downside. The HRE knight is pretty much bottom tier in this game. He doesn’t have to be the best one, but he should be somehwat special. And with the IW nerf he is even less powerful now, while the power of other civs keeps growing. So I’d give HRE knights some distinction as well, because mounted warfare was just as prominent in the HRE as it was in England or France. Only the French were more famous for their knights than the others. (That’s also what annoys me about the Cataphract, which is the predecessor of the knight and not his superior and he should never be better than a Renaissance knight, because he ceased to exist around the 12th century. He is the earliest heavy cavalry of the Feudal and middle ages, why is he so much more better than the knight? AoE2 did a better job here as well by making the Cata a specialist that is clearly inferior vs knights, but a lot better vs infantry. But I digress…). I’d be okay with not giving the TK to the HRE and focus the HRE mainly around the LK, if there was ever a Teutonic Order to be added to the game. If not, the TK should definitely become a HRE unique unit. It would make the most sense as I have tried to lay out.
This is very very roughly what I think should have been done with the HRE. It could have been a civ that is as layered and interesting to play as China or Abba (doesn’t have to be overly complicated, just a lot more versatile and interesting) with many influences of the various kingdoms, duchies and counties that were part of the HRE. But instead it became this generic civ, with Prelates and inspiration that are supposed to display the piety and industriousness of the German people plus some dudes with maces, a weapon that was common in the HRE, but not HRE specific. Add in a few landmark dependencies and there we have the HRE of AoE4. And I think it is the least inspired (pun intended) and simply weakest civ design in the game, which became more and more notable with more and more DLC civs. The gaps became wider and more apparent.
In comparison to that, French did develop graciously. They are a top civ, very strong in every age and have two of the most powerful unique units in the game. They are more coherent, more distinct and more powerful than the HRE in pretty much every regard. So when we take the differences from AoE2 and AoE4 in regards of these civs, the French have clearly won, while the HRE got the shortest stick. I tried several mental gymnastics to find a HRE silver lining. But I simply do not find it. It’s a civ that needs a lot of love, preferably even a rework. At least in some areas.
For 2 reasons:
1).- Fast Imperial Buff: Well, Beasty won a game recently 1vs1 with Fast-Imperial, because he fought against an Abbasid which makes Eco-boom.
So, fast imperial is a good counter to another Eco-boom of other civs, I suppose, or in some Free-For-All if you are confident enough.
2) Historical Reason/Lore: For much of its existence, the German Royal Academy (HRE) controlled northern Italy. Many German nobles went to study in Italy, and there, around 1400, many universities began enforcing the “Compulsory Residence” law. Students had to live near the university to study there, and the universities themselves created student housing, some expensive, some cheap, and some with scholarships.
As for the lenses… interestingly, it’s something Italian, but also german.
1).- *Eyeglasses were invented in the 13th century (1200-1300) by an unknown inventor in northern Italy. They were mainly used in workshops for religious jewelry (crosses, reliquaries, shrines) to allow for closer viewing of the details while working. They were also used to correct farsightedness (hypertrophy). There was no standardization of eyeglasses to correct myopia until the 16th century, after Johannes Kepler’s observations on convex telescope lenses were popularized much later for eyeglasses.
2).- About his use in Multiplayer.- I don´t know. I suppose is a buff to all his units in general, because if you have so much vision, your Knights and Infantry can make Charges with enough distance of the enemy, without the need of any nearby explorer.
Both technologies, interestingly, are based in Northern Italy, which was a territory of the HRE during the game’s time period.
This could be a consideration for granting them more technologies or even unique units related to their controlled states, perhaps even from the Netherlands or Bohemia.
There are several reasons why not. However, we must remove several, several myths about AoE2.
And trust me, is even hard to me to say it.
Where do I start? Oh yes:
It may hurt, but it’s true. The Teutonic Order was not actually part of the Holy Roman Empire.
It was founded during the Third Crusade by German knights… but nothing more. They were a religious order, and therefore, only answered to the Pope. Later, the order became popular in Germany, where they recruited more members, but their principles and actions were guided by 1) The Pope and the designs of the Holy See, and 2) The Grand Master of the order.
The closest comparison today would be like The Red Cross in Peru:
Does it belong to Peru? No
But does it have branches there and can it recruit members there? Yes
Well, it’s the same with the Teutonic Order; it recruited members in the Holy Roman Empire, where it had many branches, but these did not belong to the Holy Roman Empire.
On the other hand, the headquarters they established in the Baltic, the Teutonic Order State, was approved as a state by the HRE… but not under its control, rather as a “recognized state.” This is similar to what currently happens with some states, such as Taiwan, which is not recognized as a state by China, but is by other countries.
The Order was actually founded after the Third Crusade, that is, after the Barbarossa Campaign of Age of Empires II (Wow!!!), so it is actually an anachronism to use this unit throughout the entire Age of Empires II campaign.
In addition to their role in the Crusades in the Middle East, they also went to the Baltic for the “Baltic Crusades,” where they created their own kingdom.
During the German Wars of Religion (1524-1589) and the Schmalkaldic War (1546-1547), the Teutonic Order remained in Estonia. In fact, one of its masters ended up converting to Protestantism… what a great help (sarcasm). Nor were they present during the Italian Wars (1494-1559).
If you ever run a campaign with the HRE, you’ll see that in almost NO possible scenarios would you have the option of creating Teutonic Knights alongside the regular HRE army.
While the Teutonic Order fought in support of the HRE during the Hussite Wars, “it did not do so within its army, but as an ally”, with its own army and its own formations. They were neither mercenaries nor vassals.
In Age of Empires IV, at least up to this point, almost all troops that can be single or shared units are generally troops that were vassals or “mercenaries” of a civilization, but not “Allies.”
There are many examples of wars where other kingdoms or countries fight as allies of other kingdoms, but without losing cohesion or control of their troops. In these cases, they cannot be counted as single units.
The French, for example, hired Genoese crossbowmen for their wars, but did not include them in their army. The Genoese themselves had their own chain of command and could retreat or refuse the commander’s orders if they deemed it appropriate. The same applies to Swiss pikemen.
The English have allied with Portugal several times to fight against the Spanish-French alliance, but this doesn’t mean they have Portuguese as a unique unit.
The same is not true for mercenaries. They are hired by a country and must carry out orders for which they are paid. For this reason, many mercenary units are unique units, if that kingdom was the only one that had them:
Varangian Guard: Byzantine mercenaries and a unique unit, they came from Scandinavia and England.
Landsknechts: German mercenaries and a unique unit of the HRE (Historical Kingdom of England), they came from the HRE itself.
Vassals are another matter; they can fight for a civilization because they are obligated to do so:
Kipchak Archers: They were vassals of the Golden Horde after the subjugation of the Kipchak Confederation. There were also others who fought for the Lithuanians, but let’s leave that for when they bring Lithuanians.
Chinese and Rus units from Mongols.- The Mongols conquered Rus and Song Chinese territories, so they can use their units as vassals.
Hui Hui Pao.- Created by Arab engineers for the Mongols.
While the Teutonic Order was not part of the HRE, it originated from them, sharing their language, architecture, and demonym.
It could well remain a Variant, since the knight of the Teutonic Order is not the only unit in a possible Teutonic Knights’ society, but also “mounted knights,” “half-brothers,” and others.
Sure, it would have been great to receive the Axe Thrower and the Teutonic Knight for both civilizations, or at least for the HRE (since the HRE is the successor/continuer of the Carolingian Empire), instead of them being only for the Knights Templar (they have the Sicilian Sergeant, but it works the same as the Axe Thrower from AoE 2/AoM)…
Sure, the same thing happens to me… when the game came out I loved HRE, but as the years and seasons went by the game evolved and HRE was left behind and forgotten, and there are 22 civs better than this one…
Exactly, you two are right… I would add that if the idea is for the HRE to be like a pre-German version of AoE 3, it would still be missing the Hussite wagons (war wagons in AoE 3) and the settler wagon (which in AoE 4 I would rename the Bavarian villager, since it’s dressed that way)… I wouldn’t include the ulhan since it’s from after the 17th century, although it comes from the Tartar horsemen (which in AoE 4 would be the keshik) who served for Poland in Vytautas’ campaigns at the end of the 14th century…
Yes, a Teutonic order variant civ could reuse the Teutonic units from the TSA campaign…
Yes, I know and I talked about how I like that the devs know about the Bursae. But still the effect of it is underwhelming, not what the civ needed and boring. Yes, more LOS is nice to have, but it’s not more than that. Especially if your army can’t beat the other army anyway. HRE was not a guerilla warfare civ, so how does that compliment their gameplay or identity? A guerilla warfare civ like Mongols could make proper use of that, but giving it to HRE just furthers the discrepancies of that civ. As a HRE main, I do not want any of these changes, they do not matter to me one bit. They rather annoy me, because HRE could have gotten something else, but instead they got… this.
I see all the advantages that these changes bring, but I consider them to be pretty much useless. The reaction of pros to the HRE changes was also very underwhelming. Only Corvinus was like “these changes are sooooo good” and I would like to think that he was trolling, but he wasn’t. But all the other pros were pretty much very unimpressed. These changes didn’t help HRE, but very slightly improved what is annoying about them: Their tempo and their imp rushing. This is not fun gameplay and it is all this civ is about. That’s why I cannot see anything positive when it comes to these changes. Burger rush and imp rush or some extended feudal… That’s all this civ can do and if the timings do not work out, all you have left is this boring and inferior civ. I want less tempo and more fun, versatility and uniqueness. It’s nice that Bursae is now in the game, it’s not nice that it got useless stuff like 30 extra pop, which in every way you look at it is a useless buff. The trick is to be historically accurate and offer good gameplay.
The 30 pop from unis could also have been this tech:
Palatine Settlements: After you have reached the pop limit of 200, every other house you build costs 50% less wood.
That’s the level of uselessness this 30 pop change brings. No civ in the game would appreciate it if their universities gave 30 pop with the only exception of the House of Wisdom. Abba giving 30 pop early instead of building houses would have been a proper help for Abba, as they lack tempo early on. But the House of Wisdom isn’t even a university. So yeah, these 30 pop are useless, the discount is… nice, but also goes in the wrong direction (as in more tempo instead of less), the Lenses help HRE only theoretically or when you really want to see a silver lining. In fact I dislike this tech so much that I want it removed again, because I am afraid that it now blocks actual good techs the civ could have gotten. I feel like Concave Lens robs the civ of a spot for a unique tech rather than give the civ something. As I have said often, vision is and never was a problem for HRE. I literally do not want more LOS, if that is only the “improvement” my army gets.
“Oh, you have the worst and most boring army in the game? Here, have some glasses.” This just sucks and feels awful for me as a 5 years main, who never wanted anything more than HRE being a more fun civ to play with a fun unqiueness, cool mechanics and a clear and strong identity.
Yeah, that’s Mongol identity stuff. Not HRE. And even as a Mongol I’d be sad to get something like that instead of anything else. Especially since this is also an imp tech. That’s the weirdest part about that. The inferior units now see their impending doom earlier now. Great.
That would be really nice. But I do not dare to hope, because I am actually traumatized from disappointment.
I never said it was. It became a knightly order in the early 13th century. The KT were disbanded in the early 14th century (1312). But the Teutonic Order organized itself and became independent even long before that, but with deep ties to the Church as well as the Holy Roman Emperor. The Order then peaked in the late 14th and early 15th century. That’s 100 years after the disbanding of the KT.
In 1226, Emperor Frederick II (Federico di Svevia, king of Sicily and from 1212 to 1250 Holy Roman Emperor) issued the Golden Bull of Rimini, authorizing the Teutonic Order to subjugate pagan Prussia and granting the Order sovereignty over their conquests as immediate fiefs of the Empire. This was all sanctioned by the Catholic Church. The HRE fought together with the Teutonic Order during the Northern Crusades (Baltic Crusades), particularly during the early Northern Crusades. However, the HRE never fought as a unified state alongside the Order; instead, the Order received crucial diplomatic backing and troops from individual HRE member states.
And the Teutonic Order also fought with the HRE against the Hussites:
The followers of Jan Hus revolted against the Holy Roman Empire after his execution. During these wars, some Teutonic Knights were deployed to battle the Hussites invading neighboring territories and fought alongside anti-Hussite Catholic and imperial forces. Earlier, at Grunwald, Zizka joined the Lithuanian and Polish forces as a mercenary to fight the Teutonic Order under Ulrich von Jungingen.
The HRE therefore still is the civ with the most ties to the Teutonic Order. If any civ should have access to Teutonic Units, especially from its peak era, then it should be the HRE or a Teutonic Order standalone civ. But definitely not the KT, who commanded the TO especially during its early time, when it was more of a caritative and less of a knightly order. After that, both Orders developed rather independently. The KT have much less business to have TO units than HRE.
But this is a game. So stretches are okay of some sorts. And this game is full of said stretches, when giving the TK to HRE would be only a minor stretch.I therefore fail to see how this doesn’t fit into the game, when…
It was founded during the third crusade in 1190 and became a knightly order in 1198. So yes, AoE 2 stretches this and isn’t fully accurate, but we have these kind of slight inaccuracies with many civs. They are part of the game.
That is true. But then the game goes ahead and gives Byzantines mercenaries that have no business to be in the Byz roster due to historical inaccuracies and anachronisms:
Units Byzantines should not have access to are the following (I may forget some):
Vs Units that can be more or less justified to be in the Byz roster:
As long as Byzantines are in this game like this, there cannot be any argument that a unique unit of one civ isn’t really a unit of said civ, but only adjacent to it. That alone shows that the game design does not follow clear rules, but is rather random and if a civ gets something or not is mainly tied to the will of the Devs, not to history or logic.
I guess you mean the Teutonic Order and not the Templars here. And yes, what you write here also supports that the lines of unique units do not have to be super strict, but can be moved and played with. So why make an exception for the HRE?
The game is not even close to be historically accurate, it can only simulate the civs, so it can be a game, since a 100% historically accurate game design would be impossible to balance. So the game needs to draw a line somewhere. But it doesn’t draw the same line, but always draws a new one for each civ, which is why it all varies so much in this game and ultiemately does not make proper sense, which leads to different qualities in the civ development.
Yes, the Teutonic Order would be easy to implelemt, because the HRE voicelines work for them and, consindering the newer variants, the differences to the parent civ can be quite severe. Unfortunately OotD was one of the earlier variants and suffers the poor HRE design as well. OotD is in terms of what it wants to be and resemble, absolute terrible.
You seem quite sure that the Teutonic Order is a realistic new civ option for this game. And while I want to share your optimism, I simply cannot. AoE 2 never did it and AoE4 appears to be hesitant as well. If KT didn’t have Teutons as an age up, I’d be more hopeful.
It could also be such a cool civ that is built around a castle towncenter called Marienburg, which you then continue to expand. The whole civ design could be built around the main TC Marienburg that becomes bigger per age and eventually includes a monastery and a university/library, while additonal towncenters are also keeps, to compliment the fact that the Teutonic Order has built so many castles during their Baltic expansion that eventually no castle was further away than 30km from another castle. And except towers and eco buildings, you cannot build any other building outside of the influence of a castle tc. That’s just a quick idea how this civ could be realized. It’d be similar to KT, but still different as it’d be more focused on Marienburg. It’d be a mix of KT and Abba design potentially.
How likely do you actually think a Teutonic Order civ would be? I consider it to be rather less likely, despite the fact that some civs have gotten 2 variants already and all the necessary requirements (like voice lines) are already there.
Unfortunately this is how it went down, yes.
There are so many ways to make HRE an interesting and up to date civ. All we need is the Devs to try these paths instead of keeping HRE hermetically sealed from the rest of the civ progression in this game.
The game already has everything that is needed to create a Teutonic Order civ without needing a big budget or having high development costs. It’s a no brainer. And despite the fact that the Teutonic Order was cruel, it’s still a fan favorite mainly due to its style. So I think a Teutonic Order civ would generally be very well received given the circumstance and possibilites of the game. The Jin Dynasty is exactly that. Something new with the assets of something else. And the Teuotnic Order also already has all the assets needed. As I said to GoldenArmorX already: I do not dare to hope for such a civ/variant, but I would be so excited about it.
I mean look at these models. They are already there and so damn clean. God damn, they are clean.
And this would be already a very solid foundation. And as I have suggested in the conversation with GoldenArmorX, the civ should be built around a major Landmark called Marienburg, while other TCs are also keeps and are needed to expand the power level.
The Teutonic Order should:
There are many ways to design a Teutonic Order civ. The Teutonic Order used gunpowder extensively during their peak period. While they are famously associated with heavily armored knights, they actively incorporated early firearms and cannons into their forces as blackpowder technology spread across medieval Europe. So in contrast to KT, they could actually have also gunpowder. They’d be a more modern version of the KT civ, but with less outer influences.
Okay, I need to stop before I forget that this civ isn’t in the game and just a projection of wishes 
They’ve announced the Vikings and Scots, two infantry civs. I’m curious to see how much fresh innovation and overall changes to infantry we’ll get.
I actually had a feeling before that they took the lessons and design philosophies learned from the HRE and applied them to the Japanese. For example, the Landsknecht was too polarizing, so they reworked it into the Onna-Bugeisha; since MAA become too fragile in the late game, they added a block mechanic; and since infantry civs often struggle with food, they gave them a landmark that provides free farms; a convenient Blacksmith requires building a landmark, which makes it a tough choice. They might as well just integrate the Blacksmith into the Mining Camp. I wonder if they’ll follow the same approach this time.
Sure, like in AoE 2…the Teutonic Order would be from 1190 to 1525 when it becomes Prussia…instead of advancing through the ages with landmarks, you could advance with grandmasters from different countries who give you different bonuses…
Yes, they would have to limit the use of mercenaries to the Byzantines, to those they actually used in real life… that is, the lower ranks, and add the units that the Vikings bring, like the Berserkers and the Godi…
Yes, they already have everything done, they just need to bring it out as a civilization as such…
Of course, the lessons they learn, they then apply to subsequent civilizations… the Vikings would be like the Norse from AoMR/AoEO and the Scots perhaps like the Russians from AoE 3…
Yeah, that’s the sad part. The Devs learn from the mistakes they made with HRE and apply better solutions to new civilizations, while HRE just hangs in the ropes and is a disgraced civ. This needs to change.
Imo Aachen needs to become a different kind of Landmark and Burgrave as well as Swabia need to change, too. The Burger and imp rushing should simply be stopped. It’s been like that for 5 years now and it is lame and boring. It also seems to deny any proper changes and additions to the civ, because this university stuff and the inspired warriors nerf were not needed at all. If anything, inspired warriors should increase dmg by more, not by less. It’s the worst mechanic in the game and therefore should be rewarding. But this IW now is almost useless. 10% is just not good enough. Especially with that poor roster and in comparison with other buffs and their braindead easy qol.
The civ needs to also be something outside of Landmarks and Landmarks shouldn’t be so decisive for the civ as they are. Landmarks need to be impactful, but they shouldn’t decide everything about the civ. For HRE, this is unfortunately the case and it sucks. And there is absolutely no fun to have with the HRE army. In imp you always have the worse army, no matter the opponent. Your towers and keeps are your best units. Together with the basic culverin. And it’s so boring to play.
Without Burgrave this civ would have a winrate below 40%, since this stupid Landmark is the only reason why HRE hasn’t fallen off even further. But winning by massing MAA in castle age is just such a waste of time and good gameplay. It sucks to win like that and it sucks to play against it. It shouldn’t exist the way it is. Aachen, Burgrave and maybe also Swabia probably need to be changed in their function and then HRE can finally get nice things and be a fun civ. Maybe Swabia could even become an Age III Landmark and Burgrave becomes the Age IV version. I don’t know, I also do not like the idea of an Age III TC too much, so it could maybe become something entirely different.
HRE needs a fundamental change or it will never be touched by anyone anymore except some Burger rushing nerds that never do anything else with this civ. Which is another reason why Burger simply needs to go. I have always disliked this Landmark. I think it is really terrible for the gameplay and the way HRE is played or can be played.
I honestly do not care about the new civs as long as HRE/OotD are such boring civs or until they announce the Teutonic Order (that’d be another civ I care for due to my historical emphasis). I’d be hyped for the new civs, especially since Vikings and Scots sound really interesting, if I was happy with my main civ. But as it stands, playing new civs gives me a bitter feeling and annoys me deeply, because I see how cool civs in AoE4 can be, while my favorite civ is this sad, stagnating, lame and outdated vanilla civ that never gets anything really useful or powerful, because their exaggerated Feudal eco and general Landmark focused gameplay allows for this terrible tempo play that is only strong because of said tempo, and not because there is anything unique, civ specific or fun about it. Ofc a generic trash civ is powerful, if they can access techs from an age higher, while you cannot. But it is so boring and simply not a good civ design.
And when they designed OotD they just multiplied the mistakes they made with HRE. It’s so frustrating as someone like me who wants to play and like these civs, but their design makes it practically impossible. For me at least.
Exactly. Let’s go, Devs! Should be a fairly easy, but also successful DLC. It could be the next spring DLC, just like how Jin was released this year. Only then it’d be the Teutonic Order.
That also sounds like a great idea. The Grandmaster (Hochmeister) should definitely be a core unit for this civ as well as important for the advancement of the civ (but not like JD, but better. As in learning from mistakes). The Order was built around the Grandmaster, so it’d make a lot of sense.
