I think inspired warriors buff should be permanent. Some people suggest it should be moved to an aura but that would be too similar to Rus.
This way It would also be inline with the civ gameplay as slow fierce force and would require time and preparing in order to buff the whole army. It would also incentive to build additional prelates and station them near military buildings.
Nerfing Regnitz and Swabia would turn HRE into trash bin.
Don’t forget their units doesn’t really have any bonus. Their Knights, Horsemen, Siege, ranged units, all are just plain. MAA sounds crazy but hey, get some crossbow and siege, they die like flies.
It should be buffing other landmarks forcing a choice instead of turning it into another trash Abbasidd 2.0.
Chinese, English, French, Delhi, Mongol, they all having free gold generate, Regnitz sounds like overpowered wow: 900 gold per minutes. Please watch a replay and take a look at gold income for Chinese (Official supervise) / Mongols (Steppes Redoubt) / English Enclosure.
If you aim for the Regnitz and relic rushing, you basically never able to squeeze out a 2nd TC, the Relic hunting Prelates production also ceased your Vills production that actually HRE being a little bit behind. Aachen Chapel doesn’t work like Chinese (Official supervise) / Mongols (Steppes Redoubt) having some magic turning 10 gold into 12 / 15. 40% bonus really drain it up instead of appearing out of nowhere. Good luck when the map spawn having gold vein far away from foodsources and woodline.
If you pay attention of the Vills number graph, before Swabia, HRE is WAY too behind than the other booming civs, even the French that they don’t even boom.
I like the uniqueness of HRE, and they are still being a MEH civ in terms of winning rate. Please don’t touch the Regnitz and Swabia.
HRE is for the most part balanced, imo. It’s just that it is a one trick pony. It just needs a minor buff to Lands and significant buff to Burgrave and Elzabech, coupled with a slight nerf to Swabia (to branch off playstyles post Feudal). I like the idea of passive relic bonus plus slight nerf to Regnitz, though.
HRE should remain an econ focused civ as it has nothing really special militarily. They got early and slightly stronger MAA, but it’s really for easy to mid game survivability. If they start adding more unique units, there could be further balance issues making HRE Mongol level OP.
I therefore like the ideas of buffing underused stuff. However, I do not think they will redesign the civs or landmarks in general - so while you have extensive nice ideas… I feel this would not happen. They said they would rather buff than nerf.
This being said, I like the ideas you have proposed for the underused stuff of HRE.
Just had a different idea for inspiration, what if it was a static buff in an aura around the prelate, so as long as a unit is within 1-2 tiles around the prelate, the buff would apply. Meaning sniping prelates would be important for the opponent, and protecting him important for HRE. This would also need the discussed increased movement speed of the prelate (same as m@a I’d say)
What do you think about that?
The problem with that is that the prelate does not move as the melee infantry does. When they charge in, the prelate won’t. So it will be a terrible annoyance to actually position the prelate so well that they give the buff when it matters. And that’s why I thought of the Ritterbruder. He would do what you suggested, but as a melee unit behaving similarly to other melee units. He would be around other soldiers, what the prelate will not do on his own. The aura for the prelate would have to be fairly large. It could work, if the a-click mechanics and behavioral patterns were there. But they are not in the game (yet?).
I think the autocast switch between healing and inspiring from an equal range would be a good solution that also lies within the game’s mechanics. You would only have to improve numbers.
One could argue if the inspiration buff should be permanent or timed on soldiers. I love the permanent idea, but you would not really need to take prelates with you, but instead keep them behind enemy lines and only bring them out to buff everything through. This might also be too strong as the buff itself is actually quite potent. My intention is to incentivise the use of prelates with your army. And I think a 1 minute duration together with the new holding relic mechanic would be a good way to make this tech useful. The Ritterbruder would round the mechanic up perfectly, but if there will be new units for existing civs, it won’t happen soon. So let’s treat the Ritterbruder as something for the rather distant future.
I think the main goal for HRE should be making inspired warriors viable as well as prelates with the army. On top of that the HRE should be freed of the necessity for their one dimensional play. So the age 3 and 4 landmarks need to be tweaked without ruining the civs gold income abilities as the HRE need gold far more than anything else. Last but not least the Landsknecht needs a proper role that goes beyond “maybe he will work, maybe he doesn’t”. It’s a rng unit that is strong when unnoticed, but insanely weak when prepared for. They should be something you would always want to go for unless the opponent has masses of anti light inf. Their direct counter should be the reason to not make them. Not their terrible cost efficiency.
And that’s actually it. That’s all my ideas are aiming for.
Thanks! But I hope you are wrong in the regard that there won’t be any greater landmark redesigns. The landmarks altogether in the game are not well balanced between each other. It’s not just the HRE that needs some more attention in that regard. And I believe that Relic will not be able to answer every issue with just buffing something else. They will have to nerf stuff and have done so already. They only try to be very careful with that and prefer buffing over nerfing. At least that’s what I understand.
I do not understand the reasoning? The HRE was constantly at war. It fielded many and various types of soldiers. Especially heavily armored ones and a lot of different kinds of mercenaries. Religious fervor was always part of their armies. They were the greatest plate manufacturer to their time. There is just no reason to give them a boring standard army that has nothing interesting, cool or fun to offer. Rus have better knights than HRE, better gunpowder units, better bombards, better monks, better religious techs than HRE and this all does barely make any sense. The HRE has the worst knights (although best looking ones in age III) in the game, but should have some of the best. The design and state of the HRE has very little to do with the actual civ. I also do not understand why a civ should be intentionally boring. And it’s not like they are the non plus ultra economically. There are many civs that outperform the HRE in lategame eco wise. All the civs have their eco boni. The HRE simply peaks very hard in castle age when they can get the relics. And again if they age up with Swabia. That’s all they are. The rest of what they offer is boring standard stuff every civ can do and most of them are better at it as well. Rus, Mongols, Chinese, even Abbasids, French, English with Network, Delhi… They all have better units across the board, because they are not one dimensionally trapped with one unit type like the HRE is with MAA.
And my ideas are not aiming towards making every HRE unit just better with new op stuff, but instead make something viable that should be an integral part of the civ anyway like inspired warriors and prelates. The other stuff is tweaking landmarks and Landsknechte. The Ritterbruder is, as I stated, more of a possibility for an expansion in a distant future. I’ve just listed him here to give the HRE a perspective regarding their personality. They should be the ones who want to bring shiny blessed plate to the battle field, because that’s what they did.
@P0ryg0n2046 I am not nerfing through the board, but intent to balance things out. I think my ideas, if understood correctly, are actually making the civ much more versatile while still keeping their current identity. And if I want to improve stuff, I need to look if it can conflict with other things that could turn out much too strong. I think Swabia is insanely strong. But it is justified, because the HRE almost has nothing going for them. With a useful inspiration mechanic allowing the HRE to field any unit with the abilitiy to improve it during battle, the other civ strengths would require some re-evaluation. And I think that the Swabia as it is now would be too strong with the other changes I have in mind. I’d be glad if it wasn’t, but let’s be real. And I am not talking about landmark ruining nerfs, but slight nerfs to reduce the after game graph a bit that shows age IV villager production. Swabia should still be a noticeable eco boost, while Elzbach would be a noticeable defense boost that could even be used aggressively when the match was rather dominated beforehand with the new Meinwerk and Burgrave.
I understand your concerns and I am grateful for them. But I think you imagine the HRE to be played the same with my changes. But there would be new possibilites. You could go for a feudal second TC with Aachen and 2 or 3 prelates and maybe say good bye to around 3 or even 4 relics. But with Regnitz you could then still benefit from a better gold income although you might have missed out on relics. Your eco, however, is far better now, thus the scaling with Regnitz can turn out very strong. Especially if you still secure one or even two relics. On the other hand you can still go for a fast castle approach and play like usual, but instead of Regnitz you’d go for Burgrave to get 2 prelates for the price of 1 and try to get as many relics as possible, which you then can put into towers and later in keeps or docks. The new production mechanic of the Burgrave would allow you to gain better map control in early age 3, meaning you can secure important positions or raid the opponent to make up for the lesser villager count, which then still would be able to be compensated with Swabia.
I think that this is much better than the current Aachen into Regntiz into Swabia meta that does not allow for anything else, because anything else is just far inferior to terribly bad. Hell, you could even go for feudal aggression with the new Meinwerk. You might have less units, but better upgrades. And your eco would be a bit safer from being raided. You could even go for an offensive Meinwerk and put soldiers in it to secure a position like the Chinese do with the Barbican. It just would not shoot on its own.
The HRE would gain more ways to be played, without becoming much worse or way too strong. At least that’s how I imagine it.
The Ritterbruder would be a mounted unit. He’d be a knight with knights stats and bonus stats in defense and hp. Him being on a horse follows the goal to also make the HRE cavalry a force to be reckoned with and for that the Ritterbruder needs to be able to keep up with cavalry. When combined with infantry, his speed will be reduced to the infantry level when moving in formation. When charging the Ritterbruder would be the first to reach the opponents with pikes and Landsknechts right after him due to the infantry charging animation and speed boost. The Ritterbruder would be there where he needs to be when combined with infantry. You would just have to see that he doesn’t die first since you want to keep him alive as long as possible. Crossbows and pikes would counter him quite nicely. He will be powerful, but expensive.
And yes, the Meinwerk would also act like a non-upgraded tower, but with twice the capacity to garrison. It would help the HRE keep their vills and prelates safe in feudal or could be used to secure a forward position in early game since the garrisoned units will shoot arrows from it.
So in the next patch, HRE will be getting a massive nerf by allowing you to house only 2 relics instead of 3 in Regnitz Cathedral, which was obviously done in an attempt to dissuade people from using the one-trick pony that’s been the staple of the ONLY successful path for HRE since release.
The Meinwerk Palace will also be getting “buffed” by increasing its discount to 30% from 25% and also increasing research speed by 30%.
As nice of addition as this is, it, unfortunately, means that this is still not a good landmark because then it just sits there doing nothing, which would’ve been okay if it were an Imperial Age landmark, but this is the Feudal Age one, and even then, it’s just standard upgrades except for one, which can be researched at the Blacksmith anyway.
And while I like the idea of having it become also a defensive building allowing it to garrison units, I have another alternative.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you one of the most iconic things of the medieval feudal system:
It would work as such:
The landmark would have a radius around it, just like some of the other civ buildings, when a peasant is in its range and you press the button, it will be converted into an infantry unit for a specific period of time. With a cooldown of let’s say 2 minutes.
Here are my thoughts on the HRE specific changes that are being tested right now:
Regnitz Cathedral Relic capacity reduced from 3 to 2
This is a nerf. No way around it. But in combination with the other changes I think it helps to put the HRE in a better place. Prelates are able to collect relics more quickly thanks to marching drills and their previous movement buff. A third and maybe fourth relic can be used in towers and keeps and the effective loss on gold is 200 per minute. What I just don’t like or actually really hate is that the HRE has no other way to get a passive gold bonus, so Regnitz will always be the way to go unless you aim to end the match quickly. Burgrave got some nice buffs, but if you can’t overwhelm your opponent with it, it becomes almost useless in the lategame and the HRE gold generation will also be very bad. What I am saying is that I hate that the passive gold generation bonus for the HRE is bound to a Landmark. That is why I presented my “Sale of Indulgences” idea that allows gold generation based on the amount of villagers you have. I thnk as long as the HRE only has a gold bonus via a Landmark, this Landmark will always be the number one choice, while Burgave is the real one trick pony thing now. Less useless than before, but still useless. I am okay with the Regnitz nerf in combination with the prelate buff, but I don’t like the idea of the gold bonus being locked into a Landmark. Even with the changes I will never use the Burgrave Palace. It’s a good choice, if there are no relics (what a surprise). But if there are no relics, the HRE is trash tier anyway. So what’s the point?
Burgrave Palace now produces infantry 400% faster instead of training units in batches of 5
See above. I don’t think it’s a good choice. The HRE needs gold more than anything. It’s a nice production facility, which you will not be able to entertain fully, so it’s actually still bad. It goes in the direction I inteded for the Burgrave myself, but I don’t like it. It has no deeper thought to it. It’s just faster production, which you can’t pay for. It’s still gonna be Regnitz all the way. For the simple reason that the HRE needs gold.
Meinwerk Palace research discount increased from 25% to 30%
Meinwerk Palace research speed increased by 30%
I like both the Meinwerk changes. Which makes sense as I had a very similar idea for it. I think this is okay and reasonable. Age 2 Landmarks for HRE should pose a choice now. I still think, however, Meinwerk should do a tad bit more (see my previous suggestion or Turmoils925’s idea), but it’s much better than before.
Palace of Swabia Villager production speed and discount reduced from 75% to 66%
I think nerfing Swabia was necessary. But no buff to Elzbach makes me sad. This is a big lategame nerf that has gotten no compensation for it. The HRE eco is considerably weaker now. This is also why I think the Burgrave buff is kinda pointless. Prelates will still be very annoying to use, so the bonus they give to economy will always be partial at best, because it is so very much a pain in the ■■■ to apply prelates to your workers in a reliable way.
Inspired Warriors effect duration increased from 30 seconds to 60 seconds
I rather like this change as it actually is the realization of my idea. I don’t like the mechanic behind it and I never will, but it should be more viable now. I presented the 100% duration change because I did not expect Relic to do any major changes… So the increase in duration is probably the easiest fix to this underwhelming mechanic. I also don’t like that prelates either heal or inspire. Inspired Warriors is a civ bonus tech that comes with a disadvantage as the in fight healing capabilities are reduced thanks to it. But I also think that this is the best we can hope for without overhauling the whole mechanic (which I still consider to be very necessary). It should be useful now. It needs to be. Prelates improving the HRE army should be a HRE core thing. And the HRE actually doesn’t offer anything special aside from that and good MAA. It needs to be viable and I hope that the increase in duration, cast range (last patch) and marching drills also counting for prelates (to help them keep up with MAA) is enough to see it more often. And to actually see it being strong and able to decide battles. I think Abbasids got the better end with a reliable +2 armor for all their infantry. Which is also why I intended inspired warriors to do something more in imperial. I suggested 15% more attack speed in addition to the normal buffs it provides.
Marching Drills cost reduced from 100 Food, 250 Gold to 50 Food, 125 Gold
Marching Drills research time reduced from 90 to 60 seconds
Marching Drills now affects Prelates
I like all marching drills changes. I think they are on point and much needed.
Added a Prelate indicator for HRE players to be able to more easily locate and keep track of their Prelates
As necessary as this is, it will still be a pain to manage eco prelates. The all army command is still useless. You can easily misplace the prelates. And it can get messy really easy, because you also want prelates in your army. There should be a way to have eco prelates removed from the all army command. And it is sooooooooo annoying to always check if the eco prelates are in the right spot. Managing more than 3 is just terrible. I like the change, but it is still not enough. Not even close to enough.
All in all I can say that the HRE changes go in the right direction, but there is still a lot to do. I haven’t read anything about the inspiration bug regarding mangonels and towers. I am pretty sure that both things are still bugged and are not being adressed in the coming patch. It makes using inspired warriors very annoying, because you need to make sure that prelates are not close to towers or mangonels or else they get caught in a pointless inspiration loop that actually takes them out of the game. Prelates on walls with towers do not inspire or heal, but inspire-loop the tower. Same with mangonels. This stuff needs to be fixed asap, because it is terribly annoying. You simply have to babysit prelates way too much and even if you notice them being caught in the loop, you still cannot do much about it except moving them away from towers/mangonels, meaning they cannot be with the army or cannot help strengthen a defensive position. This sucks and is nothing but an old bug that waits for fixing.
With the nerf to the HRE eco and the lack of the promised improvements for Landsknechts (it was promised together with camel buffs… So where is it?), Landsknechts really need to get some love and soon. I always hated how they were designed. I hate it so much that they are weak ■■■ glass cannons, which is historically just not accurate (elite soldier, core of the army, feared… I wrote that stuff tons of times now) and now they are even worse. They are just too weak for what they cost. They need more hp. They just need more hp. They die much too fast and I hate it.
I know that pros used them in batches and it looked like they were doing something. But you could also always see how easily they are killed by actually everything… Towers, keeps, towncenters, any type of ranged unit. There is nothing like that anywhere else in the whole game. I can’t express how much I hate that. I also do not want them to be cheaper. They were expensive mercenaries for crying out loud. I just want them to be better. Reduce their dmg, if necessary, but give them more hp. It is so stupid. I hate their role so much. And why are they the only special military unit for the HRE? I have to say it how it is: This is really bad. The HRE offers so much, but they get a historically inaccurate glass cannon wimp as the only special unit. That’s a disgrace and nothing but a disgrace.
And you also cannot go Burgrave and build Landsknechts. You do not have the gold for it. Which is another reason why I think that the Burgave change is useless. You have one Landmark that gives you a very necessary boost for gold generation. And you have a Landmark that only makes you spend ressources faster. The gold Landmark is a no brainer, you will always go for it. That’s why I would suggest to make Regnitz baseline (an age III building that can only be built once and costs as much as going up from age 1 to 2 or smth like that) and add a whole new Landmark next to the Burgrave.
It just doesn’t work if one Landmark gives you a must have for your economy while the other one doesn’t do anything in that regard but instead let’s you burn through your ressources even faster.
That’s what I think about all of this. The direction is alright, most changes are looking good, but it is just way too little. There needs to be done so much more. And I am actually disappointed, because I thought the spring update would be a really big thing. But it’s not. It’s another step in the right direction, but not the expected leap.
Yes, you would have to play a long feudal match, but why would you ever really choose Burgrave over Regnitz? In a long feudal match you can build quite a lot of barracks. Burgrave would only be interesting for having faster upgrades then. But Regnitz would still be the better choice here. By far. And if you think “I can win with a Burgrave timing push” or something in that direction, you can’t really have a long feudal match, because the longer the feudal match, the weaker the boni of the Burgrave… So in order to have full use of the Burgrave boni, you would have to go for a rather quick castle age. And then you can’t afford what the Burgrave has to offer.
These are the only two situations in which Burgrave would make sense: You think you can win with it by overwhelming the opponent with more units and better upgrades or the match didn’t go your way and Burgrave is your last straw for whatever reason. And if your expectations failed you and you can’t win with that push, you gimped yourself for the rest of the match and can actually resign. I still don’t see why you would ever choose Burgrave over Regnitz, unless all relics are already gone. It’s like 4 barracks with faster upgrades against a solid eco Landmark that will be better in 95% of the matches.
I would never choose Burgrave. Never ever. Unless there are no relics anymore ofc (no brainer). But then you are on the losing side anyway and Burgrave also won’t save you.
+400% speed are 5 barracks, not 4. The upgrades +400% speed.
It will be a more flexible Landmark because there will no longer be batches of 5 by 5. Although Regnitz is used somewhat more, the important thing is that Burgrave is used too and I think that is the way to go.
The Landmark still is just a (much) better barracks. The benefit from that is short lived or not even really affordable. And I am pretty sure that eventually nobody really wants to use it. Regnitz is way too important and gives you so much more in comparison reducing Burgrave only to a “if you are in a silly mood”-option. If you wanna do something different, although you know it is the worse choice. If you need to go number 2 really bad and want to end the match quickly, which probably won’t work as it still is only a better Barracks in age III, which requires a certain premise (strong feudal eco) to be useful. In my opinion the new Burgrave is just plain terrible and very boring as well.
And if you go Burgrave and the match goes into imperial, you will hate your choice. It’s S-tier vs C-tier at best. And only masochists choose C. I only see people choosing Burgrave to try it out. 2 weeks after the patch nobody will care for it anymore. It’s better than before, but it’s somewhat still the same. It’s less bad, but still not good. It’s a long term eco boost allowing for much more freedom of choice vs a short term production and upgrade increase that becomes less useful with every passing minute. It can only produce infantry (are ranged units even included? I think they are not.). If Burgrave produced stronger or cheaper units as well, then I would maybe see a choice here (I’d probably still always go Regnitz.). But it does not. It’s just a turbo barracks. It gives you nothing that you cannot get with the Regnitz choice quality wise.
Okay, there might be one scenario in which Burgrave is good: You have a solid feudal eco, but the opponent got to castle before you and threatens you with better units. Burgrave could then be used to quickly close the tech and army gap. Then you could maybe defend and overwhelm. It’s like a last resort thing.
You are speculating the meta without the patch being released.
The facts are that Burgrave has been buffed and Regnitz has been nerfed. That a Landmark is usually chosen more than another is not a issue, the point is that the other has a decent percentage of appearance.
I still think that the discount to Imperial must be in Elzbach.
Your Elzbach idea would make Swabia much worse and it would beat its purpose of catching up in imperial. It’s the one catch up mechanic for the HRE after doing a one tc fast castle. Elzbach should be worthwhile, when you go for a 2 or 3 tc start without fc. But it’s not. And that’s where Relic should improve the Elzbach.
And yes, the facts are that Regnitz was nerfed and Burgrave buffed. My point just is that Regnitz is way too important for the HRE, because gold is much needed, while Burgrave is still just a better barracks and nothing else but a better barracks.
Burgrave is a landmark that does not allow for lategame competitiveness. Just look at the Rus age III landmarks: Both give an economic bonus, but one is more military (securing relics faster than others) and the other one more self-sustaining and reliable. Even if one could argue that the Trinity landmark is superior, the quality of the landmarks is comparable and both allow for a long term bonus in eco and gameplay.
That is not the case for the HRE age III landmarks. One is great, the other one is terrible in comparison. The Burgrave is still the same bad landmark, it just works differently. You do not have to accumulate the ressources for 5 units at once, but instead can spend them in short intervalls. It’s the same stuff, only a tad bit more reasonable… The only real improvement is the faster research time and that is just plain terrible compared to Regnitz. And I don’t want this to be the reality for the next two months just because the Burgrave change sounds better on paper than it actually is. I don’t even wanna see this new Burgrave on live servers, because it is not new. A pure barracks landmark that only produces faster will NEVER beat Regnitz.
I prefer a Landmark a thousand times that works like 5 barracks in production speed than that forces you to make batches of 5 by 5 and with the obligation to gather many resources to make them. This has a lot of flexibility when it comes to choosing which units will come out of that Landmark, i.e. Burgrave will cost 750 resources + the increased speed of unit upgrade research, somewhat similar to many other civilizations’ Castle Landmarks in resource cost . It’s not going to be a Tier C Landmark, far from it.
HRE doesn’t have to urgently need Regnitz due to the buff they’ll be making to prelates to inspire units for DOUBLE the time, so a prelate’s contribution to the economy will be much higher. By the way, it’s okay that it never needs to do double TC like Delhi? Maybe it’s time to make it viable.
Let’s be clear, Swabia with the nerf is still a very powerful Landmark in Imperial, so that discount is not needed at all to advance in age, it is good to give it to Elzbach to give him more play.
You have to be more careful with the civ buffs, lest they be the new Mongols or Delhi.
Inspiration duration of 60 seconds only applies to military units. It’s the “inspired warriors” buff that gets extended (“Inspired Warriors effect duration increased from 30 seconds to 60 seconds”). The economy stays at 30 seconds. So there is that. The HRE eco will be worse with the new patch and the Regnitz and Swabia nerf. There is nothing that compensates for that.
I am totally on board to be careful regarding changes. But imo we see here a change that is only disguised as a change. It offers slight improvements to the same idea. That’s my critique. The idea is wrong. It’s an age III landmark and only a faster producing barracks. It’s not a keep, nor a tc, it’s just a barracks that doesn’t even offer anything special. No new techs, no better units, nothing… Just faster production. And there is no economic bonus, just an economic challenge to actually entertain this barracks.
I honestly see absolute zero incentive to ever go for this landmark. Everything it does can be achieved without it, while you’d also have a much better economy thanks to Regnitz. A 1 relic Regnitz already beats this new Burgrave… The only trade off is time. But since you need a good eco to entertain Burgrave, the time advantage becomes even smaller and less useful.