One small issue with new Burgrave I see is how to put both melee and ranged units production and upgrades into it, considering how small the UI window is, which you’d have to double its size in this case.
I like some of those ideas. HRE is my least played civ. I just don’t get how to use them
Just watched another HRE game.
Won against Delhi, where the opponent just gave up because he couldn’t cap the sacred sites 16min in and he went into Age3.
And I find annoying to hunt with the scouts in the early game as rus, so?
If something is just annoying/not fun it means that is just about personal preferences, not about a civ being weak, at best in the most extreme scenarios make a civ more difficult to play.
Sentences like that suggests that it’s like a request, but I’m just happy if I’m wrong.
I believe that right now, it has potential, but yes, it’s not on the level of Chinese, abassid or rus 2TC play.
Although, it might need only some adjustments, like giving starting stone to the HRE, or making the Elzbach Palace age up cheaper too, so to allow for a delayed castle age into a fast imp.
Another option could be that buildings under the area of influence of multiple TCs get a lower recharge time for the emergency repairs.
Still, as it is now it can work, but it really depends on what map are you on. Gathering the wood and stone with buffed vills can get you the resources for the second TC very fast, then you switch into heavy farming.
Tons of things are counterintuitive in the game, I still tend to place farms around the TC as English for example.
As for the historical aspect, well have you ever known of the mamalukes? Aoe it’s known for bending the rules of history, but still relics were placed everywhere in general. I mean, you see an outposts but you can see it as a bell tower. Onestly in the middle ages every tall building was multifunctional.
But history apart, it’s a good defensive bonus, it just came in too late. But still, being able to garrison relics without having to wait for a 200 wood building it’s not bad. If you put them on a forward castle is even better.
You still have to build the monastery, for upgrades and for other relics, so it’s not like an useless building.
I didn’t tell you what you “have to do” but what you “should do”, there is a difference. I’m just suggesting that maybe aoe2 or aoe3 is more like your kind of game.
This is more about a problem of the siege, since it’s to easy to use, but still manganels were nerfed, so onestly only the nest of bees counter infantry really hard, so just avoid make landskenechts against Chinese.
And only because something is hard to do, it doesn’t mean that it should be changed or it’s not worth. Do you want for them to be like the siege situation? Where you just have to build the unit and you don’t even have to bother to use a bit of micro?
Landsknechts can use a buff, like a UT that increases the ranged armor, or an ability that brakes charges or stun units. But in no universe the landskenechts should get strong again manganel units, or other purposely anti infantry units.
But again, the problem is mainly about how strong siege is in this game, without needing to anticipate enemy units with target ground, no need of imperial upgrades for units, super fast repair rate by vills, the problem that when the unit shoots, the boulders follow you even on the edge of the map…
But try to mass landskenechts and with control groups send them behind a mass of horsemen or pikes. It works, it just needs some practice to implement it.
Pickrate is something else, there might be other factors affecting it, like people simply find French and English easier to use.
Not stronger, because Delhi and mongols are still probably the strongest civs. Yet both civs need more skills to be used, so it’s pick rate is lower.
The HRE is probably middle of the ground, not OP, and not easy to use, that could easily justify their stats (they aren’t correlate though, that’s impossible to establish).
So basically free arrowslits but with the possibility of getting other emplacements over it?
I prefer double garrison capacity, it allows you to save more vills and prelates, which is what really cripple the HRE against French.
Historically speaking, landskenechts and Swiss pikemen didn’t get along much… so they shouldn’t be put in the same civ…
That could be good, it would just strengthen MaA against units that they are already good against, so far from OP. It would probably need a small cost reduction.
Blockquote
So basically free arrowslits but with the possibility of getting other emplacements over it?
I prefer double garrison capacity, it allows you to save more vills and prelates, which is what really cripple the HRE against French.
I think double garrison would be too much. The Rus has 8 garrison capacity but their outposts cost 175 and it’s a unique building. French raids are tough on everyone, my idea was to just help them defend against stuff like longbow raids and scout harassment. It can’t be too powerful because the idea of the game is to encourage early aggression, the idea is just to give the HRE a bit of safety in dark/feudal so they don’t feel forced be the first to attack.
Wasn’t Switzerland part of the HRE as well?
Well, the biggest problem of you idea is that it incourage Trush strategies, which nobody likes.
For example, at the start I thought of extending the emplacement discount to the outpost itself, to make the HRE being able to build more of them, but that too would incourage Trush.
As for the wooden fortress, the building also have double the HP and gives back a wood bonus, so an increased cost is justified. The HRE outposts instead would just allow to save more vills.
The main problem of the HRE, is that their strong eco comes from their strong vills and prelates, which knights easily snipe. It would also help to get forward positions, and grab resources outside your base, since most likely as the HRE you burn your initial natural resources faster.
Against longbows also, outposts do little, since they out-range them and they easily build mass rams to deal with them. I personally found that against English going for the Meiwerk palace is the strategy, followed by mass MaA.
Yes, but landskenechts and swiss mercenaries were often rivals, and found themselves on the opposite sides of the battlefield. In fact when the landskenechts marched on Rome, it was a group of Swiss soldier that counter marched on Rome to protect the pope, and from that the famous Swiss papal guard formed.
Although, I can’t think of another civilization that could use the swiss pikes… maybe just a future Italian state.
2 Likes
I know that this was proposed some time ago too, but what if the HRE would start with 5 villagers instead of 6 and 1 prelate.
Factoring in the bonus carry capacity and the prelate buff, that 5 vills are actually equal to 7 vills, so it would transform into a vill advantage over time. You would also be able to add a second scout right away without needing to delay your prelate, or add a second prelate so to separately buff your gold and food.
I don’t know if then the HRE would have to start with less gold, because they would be able to age up too fast, but I think that it shbe something to think about.
1 Like
I’ve been playing alot of HRE this season. They are strong, and they won’t really take much to become top tier again. My problem with HRE is they are one of the worst designed civs. Their landmark balance is bad, and strategies are very one dimensional.
Heres a couple of suggestions, everything doesn’t have to be added in:
- HRE gains access to bombard stone towers in Imperial (this was in the beta, no idea why it was removed).
- Riveted Mail tech moved to the blacksmith at Feudal Age. Now gives all infantry +1/+1 armor.
- Prelate Inspired Warriors buff can now be casted on units in combat.
- Landsknecht HP increased from 80 to 110 (veteran), 95 to 130 (elite). Damage decreased from 17 to 15 (veteran), 20 to 17 (elite). Cost from 60F/100G to 80F/80G.
The HRE was very well known for their use of artillery, much like the Ottomans. They established gunsmithing guilds from the mid 1400s and were masters. The Bohemians were also pretty well known as early adopters of gunpowder warfare. Its also suspected they were the inventors of the wheellock and certainly the earliest users of pistols.
- New tech, Serpentine Guns 300F/700G. Reduces reload time of culverins + bombard emplacements by 25%.
- HRE replaces bombards with cannons
My proposals for landmark balance:
- HRE gains a tech to increase relic gold income by 50%. Available in the monastery in Castle for 350G. Regnitz Cathedral no longer increases relic gold. Relics garrisoned in the Regnitz Cathedral now produces +50 of every other resource every 30 seconds (just like the old Pagoda).
- Burgrave Palace has a 20% discount on infantry units
- Palace of Swabia no longer reduces cost of Imperial age up. Now acts as a special market. Traders are created at 200% speed, 66% less cost. Exchanging resources at the palace now bottoms out to 30 instead of 10.
- Elzbach Palace when garrisoned with a relic provides the relic bonus to its influence area. All units under the influence also gain inspired warriors buff.
2 Likes
Good ideas, Still, something also needs to be done about prelate Inspired Warrior buffing and cavalry.
Give Prelates the ability to mass bless when holding a relic and it shares cooldown with Conversion because nobody is still willing to risk putting prelates into combat scenario as the 4sec cooldown on blessing isn’t helpful.
As for cavalry: Either give them the aforementioned “Return of the Crusaders” upgrade to make knights more durable or just turn them into Ritterbruder, which has Knight’s stats, but upon death turns into a MAA stat heavy infantry unit.
1 Like
I like that you post some of the steam responsed into the thread. Keep it up! 
But I will only respond to them, if I think I need to add something on my behalf.
Like tthis:
Regarding the Landsknecht issue: This is one of my core complaints anyway. Why does the HRE have the Landsknecht as special unit, when he should be an age IV elite infantry? The time frame is completely off for having Landsknechte run around in castle age. That’s why I always wanted a further and different special unit for the HRE that has its place in the castle age. I wanted the Ritterbruder to be that special castle age unit, while the Landsknecht becomes an age IV unit.
Now this would mean that Relic would have to change quite a lot and they would have to reevaluate their whole take on the HRE, which I would not mind, but what is also very unlikely to happen. And that’s why I tried to work with the things that are there.
And I think making the Landsknecht cheaper to compliment his weak in-game nature is another level of being historcially completely out of the time frame and context. That’s why I want this unit to be strong and expensive, instead of weak and massable. A strong and expensive unit is much more reasonable to mix into an army than the pathetic wimp the Landsknecht is right now.
You can build this unit, when you are ahead. You attack with this unit and it never survives the first battle. It helps cleaning up enemy soldiers, but Landsknechte are never left standing and can easily die to any unit, which also beats the intended counter system of the game. This is unacceptable unit design and needs to change. That’s why I am with all my heart against making them cheaper, but instead make them stronger and more expensive. Numbers can always be tweaked. Should 20% dmg decrease not suffice, it can be increased. And also do not underestimate 150 gold for a unit that still dies fairly quickly. You would still have to watch out for them, but they wouldn’t be so increadibly squishy anymore.
I think it is terrible to have a special unit that works like the Landsknecht does right now, while it’s also the only special unit for this civ. You move your army a bit too close to a keep, you eat three volleys before the units move out of range again and with bad luck they all aim for Landsknechte… And then you have 3 Landsknechte less. This is unacceptable for me. They are way too squishy for this game. They are as squishy or even squishier than some ranged units, but are a melee unit. It’s just not a good design.
Landsknechte survived most of their battles. It would not have become such a big and successful mercenary pack if it was a suicide mission. They risked their life for great pay. And they were paid great amounts of money, because they were fairly strong and feared on the field. But the game turns all this around and makes it into a travesty.
I’d rather the Landsknecht was removed and replaced by something else, than accept the way he is designed since release. For me it is clear he needs to be changed. Especially when we have this focus on ranged units.
Again: This is a unit that you can only build when ahead. Otherwise it will just cost you everything and you win no ground with it. It can’t help you defend or get back into the game. It only helps you overrun the enemy when you are already ahead. People tend to only see when Landsknechte slaughter vils or spears. They seem to massively overlook how terrible the cost effectiveness of this unit is. It is absolute and complete garbage, the worst of all the military units in the game. And they factually have the worst cost to hp ratio in the whole game. By far. That’s the main reason, why this unit just doesn’t work and only fills a niche, in which it can be quite powerful, but other than that has no place in the game. There are more downsides to this unit than upsides.
I am totally on board to have sale of indulgences start off as a baseline civ advantage that can be improved in a monastery starting in castle age and with a landmark (Regnitz). I just thought that it being a tech would maybe lead to a further incentive to build a second tc, which again would add another prelate and boost vil production. It’s a tech that would not be good for feudal if you fc, but it’d be very worthwile to pick up in castle age. But if you choose to 2 tc, it can be good for feudal as well. With 1 g per blessing it’d be a small tickle anyway. The castle age upgrade and increased pop size together with inspired warriors would make it become a notable gold source. But I am not at all against just making it baseline. It would also be around 50 gold until feudal age. It would by no means be overpowered.
Regarding Benediction: I am just not a fan of increased building speed in combination with inspiration. I think it is counter intuitive as it allows to build faster when the actual bonus is to gather faster. Leave faster building speed to the Chinese instead of giving rather terrible techs to other civs that also only work temporarily. Building speed via inspiration and tech to research is very lame. It’s something you can get, sure, but you don’t really care about it at all.
And it would almost be pointless for forward tactics as prelates have something better to do than to inspire viallgers that are building. Benediction should be changed completely. Even 100% building speed would still be lame and boring. It’s something that makes the Chinese unique and these kinds of uniquenesses shouldn’t be applied across all civs in different ways. Especially not in such an annoying and inferior manner.
But it’s great to know that Aachen Chapel would work quite well with Sale of Indulgences.
Regarding relics and team games: Fair point.
Burgrave: Yeah, sure. That could also work. But I like it to have an eco incentive as well. Hence the reduced costs for units (and upgrades) to be able to afford them better and to have a building in imp that allows to produce gold heavy units in a reasonbale manner (production speed as well as cost reduction). While you can build several raxes, ranges and stables to produce all the cheaper units, the Burgrave would be the place allowing you to rather continuously build Landsknechte and Hand Cannoneers in the late game.
The Regnitz giving a boost to Sale of Indulgences would make Sale of Indulgences stronger and be an even greater incentive to use prelates as often as you can. It’d be the bigger eco advantage over the Burgrave, which is why Burgrave should have a cost reduction. Sale of Indulgences should be improved by a sacral landmark in my opinion. It would only make sense.
But if Burgrave doesn’t reduce costs, Regnitz would probably still be chosen over it in pretty much most cases.
Regarding better cavalry: Yes, the HRE needs more diversity. And the intended upgrade for knights would just offer than and also compliment the civ in general. And knights are also a frequently used unit by the HRE anyway. It would just make sense and it fits the civ. They also have the best looking castle age knights (despite missing the freaking coat of arms!!!). They look so neatly armored, it’s a pity that they are aomong the worst knights in the game.
It’s actually on point with this. Delhi’s the only civ that gets an early monastery, which is odd that HRE doesn’t have it, while its primarily produced unit can only be produced from TCs until Age 3, and it’s HOLY Roman Empire.
So yeah, I’m on board with them having an early monastery.
2 Likes
Imagine a time in this game when we see Dark Age with tons of options from such changes. It will be a day of rejoicing.
I wouldn’t mind it, since that way I could spam prelates without idling vill production, but 200 wood for just training prelates doesn’t seem that worth…
Maybe if they cost just 100 wood, or if they could research inspired warriors in the age 2…
Anyway the HRE was just a name, I mean it was more of a political thing, that the pope wanted to say that he had the power to give the title of roman emperor, so he added an holy to make it even more clear to the eastern roman emperor.
1 Like
Depressing.
Something needs to be done for Age 2 HRE.
HRE is in a horrible spot. They need a new unique unit. Ritterbruder would be so cool…
2 Likes
There is also this one though:
And there are a lot of other videos of drongo or other content creators where the HRE wins.
Ye, but that still means that the church played a big factor in HRE since its inception, so it literally doesn’t make sense why the civ doesn’t have a monastery earlier than Age 3, while Mongols can already have Stable in Age 1 because it was the base of their culture.