[HRE] Suggestion for the devs: How to improve/change the HRE!

Yeah but you get prelates, and 2 of your 6 landmarks are religious buildings.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against an early monastery, but it has to have a purpose, not for just having a monastery for the sake of it.

I believe that, for example, inspired warriors as it is now it could be more meaningful in age 2, when micro is more important and easy due to the low number of units. So in that case I would be in favor of an early monastery, but of course the HRE should also get a discount on it, or the tech should be like super cheap, because even with the HRE eco, 750 resources are a lot.

And building the monastery just to get prelates doesn’t seem that good of an investment…

This thread is only partially about the current balance issues, which could very well be fixed easily by tuning some numbers, giving some more starting res or simply changing some small things. But that’s not the core of this thread. This thread is about the HRE’s identity as a civ with mechanics that synergize and actually resemble the civ in a fitting manner, instead of this weird construct it is right now. The power of the HRE is built around landmarks. Landmakrs make the difference for this civ, because everything else is either mediocre, useless or just not in line with the actual civilization and what it has to offer.

That’s why we have the Sale of Indulgences idea here. Same goes for the Ritterbruder or the Landsknecht, who needs to be a different kind of soldier that deserves to be called mercenary and who actually should also be an age IV only unit. Castle Age is not the right age for this unit, but since the HRE lacks uniqueness especially in units, the Landsknecht is somewhat forced into the CA. And since a new special unit will not come any time soon if at all, we have to accept it and try to work with this. Hence we have the suggestion of a new tech called “Return of the Crusaders” to somewhat catch two flies at once: It’s supposed to show the elaborated plate work of the HRE, their use of powerful heavy cavalry as well as the connection to the Teutonic Order. A stronger knight line would give the HRE a much needed diversity as well as display the actual historical strengths of the civ in a comprehensible way. Same goes for the ideas with Spearmen that turn into Pikemen of Landsknecht origin starting in castle age as well as the Arquebus Landsknecht, who is more expensive and slightly stronger than the usual HC, but also replaces him.

The gameplay improvements (inspiring during batte, healing gives inspiration, the new toggle buttons etc) for monks and especially prelates are supposed to help the HRE to make actual use of prelates in battle, which is also supposed to play into the Sale of Indulgences mechanic (which simply rewards you for making use of your prelates to somewhat offset the susceptibility that comes with it). Castle Age Landmarks should thus be centered around a military heavy or a religion heavy approach, with the idea of helping both production and economy. The HRE needs more and much better reasons to actually want to take prelates into battle (the “new” Benediction effect (+1/1 armor for prelates and +5% more movement speed for them and all inf) also aims towards that goal. This all goes hand in hand with a reduction of economical dependencies on relics, which in turn should give the HRE unique boni (for example mass inspiration or something like that via wololo), but without being so enormously paramount for an advantageous economy. I’d be fine with 125% to 150% gold per relic (but only when put into a monastery or Regnitz, which would be a full on monastery landmark anyway), while towers and keeps give the normal amount. That way you want relics in your monastery, while it still makes sense to put them in key fortifications. And with a working Sale of Indulgences mechanic the HRE would be much less dependent on actually getting bonus gold from relics.

Swabia is a landmark at fault, because it makes you want to reach imp as fast as possible, because the ages before are just not as worthwihle. The HRE should be free from basing all their tactics so massively on landmarks rather than unit compositions and their possibilities in each age. That’s also why we have the suggestion of changing Swabia completely into a landmark that benefits trade, while the Elzbach becomes much more interesting as a defensive landmark (relic effect for capable buildings in the influence). And that’s also why many ideas in this thread are supposed to help the HRE to make 2 or 3 tc play more viable.

The HRE is a civ that is rather weak in general, but has some chunky landmarks that give huge boosts (Regnitz, Burgrave, Swabia) to make up for all their shortcomings. And I think that this is nothing but an awful civ design.

The early monastery idea is also a result of the lacking civ identity. But we would still need to find a good reason for that. DoctBaghi is right when he says that simply putting the monastery into age II is not enough to actually make it worthwhile to build one. One idea could be to have the age II monastery be called a chapel that turns into a monastery with the age up. The chapel is rather cheap in wood costs and can only produce prelates plus maybe another tech. Maybe even inspired warriors. 15% more dmg is not that much for age II units, but 1/1 armor would help a lot. That’s just one idea, though. Inspired warriors needs a lot of help, but for age II it’d be quite good in its current state. It just needs to be better for CA and imp.

Ps.: I really like the mortar idea for a unique HRE artillery unit. The Pumhart von Steyr comes to mind, which was used by the Habsburgians.

Yes, this is very spot on. I hope the devs realize that the civ needs a lot of help. It is the worst designed civ of them all. And for many reasons.

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New patch balance:

Sadly it doesn’t really improve the situation. While you won’t fall behind on vill count at the start, this won’t change the fact you will later when you have to create more prelates.

Yeah, it doesn’t do anything and is well… to be blunt like a fart in the wind. It doesn’t improve the HRE, it doesn’t make anything better in regards of the acutal design flaws this civ is littered with. These changes would be a nice addendum to some real changes, nothing more. This is what you do not want as a sole change. Yeah, this is not the patch. And maybe it’s still too early for any real changes. These are no effort changes that might help a tiny bit in regards of starting the game, but completely ignore the issues the civ has as a whole. If these are the changes we can expect for the future, this game will die soon. Because it’s just not enough.

The mangonel change will help the HRE way more in the sense that it makes much more sense to go for mangos against range, thus improving melee inf altogether. This is actually a very good change for the HRE, without changing anything for the HRE. The big issue, however, is that these changes suggest that the HRE is in an okayish spot and not the worst desgined civ in the game. That annoys me the most. Then again I think this is all you can expect from a server side patch. Those will always be small changes that don’t change anything but numbers or things that have been part of a patch plenty of times already.

Because this:

  • Prelates no longer become stuck inspiring an out-of-range target.

has been in the patch notes several times now.

No, this patch is disappointing and I hope it’s just to do something now in order to do more later. If there is nothing more to come and the HRE stays like this for the rest of the year, I will be gone from the game. I will stop putting time into anything and simply stop. Because it’s pointless. For me this game has been nothing else but waiting for it to become better. Not only in regards of the HRE, but mostly because of it.

Then again the part where it says what comes next does not offer any hopes. It seems like Relic doesn’t want to do much with the game anymore. Or they simply do not want to promise anything. Better shift-queues are… yeah nice and massively necessary. But it’s nothing to look forward to if that is the only thing. It won’t excite anybody, who has left already. DeMuslim will be very happy, tho, if it is going to be done correctly.

I really do not know how much patience I will have left. As I said: This thread is less about balance, but more about fixing the design flaws for the HRE. And the biggest flaw is that this is civ’s only strength is some huge number effect landmarks. And then this civ offers nothing anymore. No unique mechanics, nothing that resembles the HRE in a historical at least somewhat fitting manner. And it doesn’t even really do what it is supposed to do due to the lack of needed game mechanics. What is so hard about making monks feel like a unit you can take into battle, because the game offers simple mechanics like a-click healing? Why is that not as well part of the future? Why only the freaking queue? Why not give prelates actually a mechanic to make them worthwhile in battle, instead of weird out of combat buffers that are useless? Shift-queueing needs a lot of improvement. But it’s not like the community will rejoice now. This will hopefully only fix what has not been broken before, what has been working fine since release, but which was broken by one of the later patches. It will only fix an issue, which has been introduced just recently and was not a problem before that. This is one of the little things that should come as a side note and is not really worth mentioning. But that is the next big thing for the game apparently. That’s… well. I don’t give a sheep tbh. This game needs a ton of more help and changes, but it seems to come only in tiny steps.

Yeah, the disappointment is real. And the outlook for the future might be the biggest disappointment of the whole patch.

@SavageEmpire566 Is this all we can expect for the future? Do you know anything about that? Because I feel like that not only my effort but the effort of the whole community is constantly being ignored. Aussie Drongo is always making these “wasn’t part of the contract”-jokes and I am starting to feel him. Does Relic simply do not want to change anything anymore? Why is the outlook for the next patch a fix for something that was broken by a patch? What are the actual plans? Why does this game not get so much of the stuff it desperately needs? And why is the HRE such a weird civ that simply doesn’t feel finished, that lacks so much of what it actually wants to be? I studied Germany’s history and its language and I am annoyed by this civ, although I want to like it. I don’t know, but I feel like it’s not smart to ignore so many passionate people, who put so much time and effort into improving and helping the game. People who actually care for the name Age of Empires. I am also starting to feel like that it is totally useless to post in this forum. It’s full of suggestions, there are tons of things… But the only outlook is fixing a bug Relic introduced themselves with a patch… That’s just… Nopers.

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Maybe you need to cut more posts you write. A developer looks at different suggestions and if you write too much when you can summarize it, less likely to be noticed.

Civilization will not be reworked. Nothing indicates that this will happen.

The HRE civilization is not assymetric like the Mongols, but it is more assymetric than the English and French. Not everything has to be historically accurate down to the last detail.

3 important bonuses:

  • The possibility of automatic repair of buildings at a good rate.

  • The possibility of making prelates in the TC to buff units.

  • A relic in a building empowers it.

Perhaps the Lansquenet can have a little more HP, but with this change, there will be a better WR, what’s more, I think the pass with Elzbach should be a cheap pass, not Swabia.

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I am definitely starting to doubt that the game will develop anymore anyway. It seems like this is it.

  • If I am not mistaken, the HRE still cannot inspire mangonels, but the prelates try to and loop themselves to death. Same with towers. And do springalds work now? (I am not sure here, I will test that later. It may have been fixed, but I don’t think so)

  • The HRE still does not have a coat of arms

  • Prelates and monks lack core mechanics to make them useful. Inspired Warriors is terrible, because there is no good mechanic behind it.

These are things that should have been fixed during the beta phase of the game. I mentioned all of them in the survey, it’s not like Relic does not know or doesn’t have the input. The game is final. And these things still exist.

On top of that we offer smaller and bigger changes here in this thread that all aim towards giving the civ a better identity, more mechanics and more synergies in order to rid it of its wannabe timing tactics and thus limitations as well as from its historical inadequacies. If that is not wanted and neither appreciated by the devs, they should say so. But they actually stated the opposite. So here we are discussing and suggesting, but the results are some half arsed changes and questionable outlooks. I am not saying “realize everything we suggest here”. I am saying “Do something. And here are some suggestions”.

Again… Core mechanics and general qol things that should very very very much be part of a AAA title are lacking since release.

I also think we can’t expect a lot anymore. Especially not a rework of any sorts. But Relic definitely needs to reconsider their stance here. AoE4 is declining and does not even remotely have the success it should and could have had. And that mostly comes down to design decisions for the gameplay, for the balance and for the interface. The Alpha of a f2p RTS game (Immortal: Gates of Pyre) offers better “watch replay tools” than AoE 4. This is just not acceptable. Age of Empires deserves better. And Relic is able to do that. But they don’t. And I don’t get it. What the hell is the problem with actually trying to make this game better and eventually even really good? It lives from streamers and tournaments. Without torunaments and seasoned pro gamers the game would have been forgotten already. Why would you miss a chance like that? You have the rights for Age of Empires 4 and you don’t try to make the very freaking best out of it? SC2 had a 6 month beta phase and it came out polished. Years later the famous Age of Empires gets the funds to be continued… And this is it? Is the dev team just too small? What is the issue here? Triple A title, many promises, the continuation of a legendary game… And we don’t even have a coat of arms, a pause feature and an at least SC2 level replay tool? SC2 had so much. You just needed to take it from there. There is no copyright on a smart tool, which can be different while still doing the same things. All I want for the AoE series is to succeed. But the outlook for the future is fixing a bug they patched in only a few months before. This is just frustrating.

Hey all—what we are able to do via a server patch is and always will be limited. Larger changes will only ever come via larger patches/updates.

I feel like I need to stress again that tweaks, changes, and updates (especially balance) are a marathon not a sprint. Despite all the negativity here regarding this OTA patch, we’ve actually heard mostly good things about these changes. Keep in mind we have a lot of data available the public doesn’t have. Any one gamer might be hyper-focused on one particular thing that is “their thing”, but we have to look at and see a lot more than that. Smaller iterations are easier to see the effect of than larger sweeping changes. Can you imagine if we made sweeping changes that turned out not to work? Do you think gamers would be more understanding than they already are/are not?

Remember that we are people to! We work as hard as we can per the plan that we mostly are not in charge of, but are here to support. We care, and we do listen, even though it may not always seem that way because there are only so many hours in the day—sacrifices need to be made with time/effort. As a gamer, imagine how frustrating it is to be more on the inside and have “my thing” that is also getting ignored :laughing:. But I also have to keep in perspective that there are a lot of moving parts and, once again, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

I don’t know about you all, but I am really excited to look back and see what has been done already since launch and what plans have been announced. There are a lot more exciting changes coming!

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Thank you very much for your response. :slight_smile:

Now if I really thought that this game was bad or didn’t have potential, I would not put so much time and effort into this thread. Just to be clear. I think Age of Empires 4 is very great.
But it is not consistently great. In my opinion the quality and depth in between the civs is close, but not close enough. I think the French, the English, the Rus and the Mongols are way more polished and offer deeper mechanics than the other civs. The Chinese easily outperform every civ in regards of uniqueness and special units. They also have the best late game units that sometimes feel impossible to beat. But they do not have the flow the afore mentioned civs possess, nor do they have their rather wide array of tactics and securities. Delhi, Abbasids and the HRE have been very bug ridden since day one. They were lacking a lot of core mechanics for the specialities their civs offer. The prelates have always been buggy, but it got better. I think it was something around two months that the HRE and the Delhi spearmen could not brace. And there have always been tournaments with money pools and commentators that comment on pretty much everything.

I think it is more than fair to say that the game did come a long way and has improved quite a lot since release day. It is soooo much better now. But I also think it is just as fair to say that most of the time the players were involuntarily beta testing. Maybe that is how it is today. I mentioned SC2, because 13 years ago they took their time to beta test their game before the release in a very meticulous manner. But Blizzard has changed since and the glory of SC2 is a thing of the past. Now I do not know about contracts, budgets and what not, but I must say that with time a lot of things seem to have changed. Game development has become more complex and you always want to reach new heights while still offering reasonable system requirements. And I can actually live with helping to develop the game and waiting for improvements. I might even say that I like to be included in the process. That does not mean that my ideas must find realization in the product or else I will be very angry and full of negativity. It only means that I very much like to see and feel the progression of the game. I want to know about your plans in a reasonable manner. When you say what is next in line and that is something that improves the shift queueing and some festival rewards, then I simply start to wonder… “okay, and then?”. And I get curious to nervous, because I really like the game, but feel like that there is quite a lot of room for improvement regarding the whole idea, identity and mechanic of the HRE that is going to be ignored if the winrates, pickrates and so on are eventually just okay for this civ, because some small changes helped them fill some roles. The civ still is very map dependent. There are maps on which the HRE excels against certain civs and there are maps on which the HRE just is inferior, while the English or French can actually always do their thing no matter what (I am not considering water maps here).

Yes, the new changes will help the HRE. They are good. The prelate change takes 20 seconds of the HRE clock, which is pretty huge as it also means extra res. The mango change is too early to tell, but it sounds great on paper. And yeah, maybe the HRE rises a bit now. The majority does like the changes. But the majority is also like a flag in the wind that can quickly change direction.
And it still does not change anything about the other fact that this civ is so weak that it needs 300%, 400% and/or 200% landmarks to catch up, overwhelm or simply compete. These are huge numbers, which are only possible because the HRE has to compensate for its shortcomings. It also limits the HRE too much to its landmarks tactic wise. And then there is the inspired warrior tech. It sounds nice in theory, but is so awkward and annoying to use that it is actually not used often or at all by anybody. The mechanics for this are not quite there. If it is to be a single cast for military units, it needs to function reliably and in combat. I made some suggestions a few weeks ago how this could be achieved in theory, but it’s only supposed to be a help or rather an example of how it could work. The Sale of Indulgences idea also is to improve the identity of the civ to simply have it resemble the HRE in a historically accurate manner. This has been one of the main income sources for the roman-catholic church during the time period you’ve set for the HRE. Every sinner could pay and rejoice. This mechanic of the Sale of Indulgences, which generates gold per blessing, would also incentivise the use of prelates for the late game. The “eco-toggle”-button would allow for an all-army command usage and with some changes to the way inspiration is applied to military units, the prelate would actually not feel so difficult to use with the army. The Benediction change idea (sturdier prelates, 5% faster) aims towards that very goal and to further stress the Holy part of the civ. The HRE is considered to be the Religion centered civ of the game by description. Their presentation trailer said they take prelates into battle. And this is all this thread is about. I want the HRE to be what it wants to be. It’s not about making this civ just better, it’s about giving it an identity and according mechanics that are also somewhat in line with its history. That’s why there are also ideas to improve the knight line of the HRE in this thread. To resemble how they went to war and what their strengths were. When we also consider Network of Castles and camels with knights, the HRE has hands down the worst knights in the game, which just doesn’t feel right. Knighthood is as German as it is French or English. Medieval literature is filled with stories of the ideal knight.

These are the reasons why this thread exists. And I did get a bit grumpy, when it is somewhat implied that the civ won’t be subject to many changes, if their win- and pickrate is just about alright. Because this is what the prelate change did with me. “It’s all about making them look better instead of actually improving them”, I thought. And when I saw the outlook to what is next, I thought: “Okay, you need to wait longer to see what might happen to the civ and how it will develop”. And I have been waiting since release. Not to annoy anybody or to be a ■■■■, but because there are not many games out there like this and I want to try to make it better. I focus on the HRE, but I also try to see it as a whole. And I feel sorry when I see the twitch viewer numbers stagnate or even decline. They rise during tournaments, but are very low in between. They are far lower than AoE 2 numbers. I wish the game was more successful and that is why I wrote what I wrote earlier. I know that you are all humans and that each and every one of you is doing a great job. You are continuing an amazing brand that exists for more than 25 years now and that can be quite overwhelming, because the expectations are so great. But it’s only good for the product if you use all the experience of former RTS titles there is and include the best features in your own product. That’s why I mentioned an older game or the Alpha of an f2p title. It’s not to be this annoying internet guy who knows everything better. But if you include some of the great “a posteriori” RTS features like pausing the game into your own product, it will be very much appreciated by everybody.

Please don’t get me wrong. I love what you did with the game and there was so much that was just done brilliantly. And because there are these heights, I must also consider the lows and that is why I am so invested in this thread and the several topics. It’s really not to be ungrateful. And I also don’t want to be a Negative Nancy. I want to help the game. With the time I can muster. And there are many others that want to do that as well. Reddit, steam and the forum here is full of them. And I know you listen and you are doing your best. And when you say that there are a lot more exciting changes to come, then I am also just as excited. I wish you all the best and please don’t take my occasional grumpiness offensively. It is not meant this way at all. I just like Age of Empires very much. Thanks again for you response! <3

2 Likes

The three biggest problems I have with HRE, which keep me from playing HRE, are the following:

  • Monks should be normal like in the other civilizations. No Monk Micro.
  • Heavy reliance on relics
  • Apart from Landknecht (monks are not military units for me) no other unique military unit such as Ritterbruder

How dare you say that. MAA with maces AND two-handers is the G.O.A.T.

The HRE lacks diversity and is too reliant on just one comp. And this comp gets literally destroyed by crossbows. The HRE army is absolutely useless, if it cannot handle crossbows as they are too strong vs MAA in my opinion. The bonus dmg might be fine vs knights, but not vs MAA. It’s too effective.

The HRE gets obliterated when wanting to attack into Network of Castles/Citadels English or Arbaletriers. NoC is completely out of control. Up to 50% attack speed for all units in a huge area that only requires one measly outpost and thus is almost always active is way out of line. You don’t even need to have a deep understanding of numbers to see that 50% attack speed for everything is completely unreasonable. CBs and LBs shoot so fast and NoC springalds ruin the “new” Mango so easily that you simply cannot attack into a NoC army as HRE. MAA just melt and when they melt, Landsknechte do to. Although they are light units and should actually do well vs heavy counters like crossbows, they are not great at all because - and that’s the biggest isuee I have with this unit - their health pool is so pathetically small that they are countered by everything that deals dmg.

Arbaletriers are even worse, because they don’t need NoC to completely ruin the HRE. 25% better attack speed in imp and up to 10 melee armor as a light ranged infantry unit is… I don’t know. It makes zero sense. Relic said something about that they wanted to have a clear cut counter system. And they gave us that. But not consequently. You have counters for everything. But then they also added mechanics that ruin the counter system completely, because a lot of stuff is just off. For example: If Mangos are the only counter to some comps, anti siege becomes way too strong for comps that are only really susceptible to mangos: Melee units become worse and worse and can only justify their lategame role with big hp, high armor values or great mobility. That’s where the HRE army is lacking completely and that’s why their late game army is very weak and only packs a punch if you can flood the enemy thanks to your massive % landmarks. But that’s true for every civ: If you have the economy, you can print units until you simply overwhelm the opponent. The thing is that the HRE army is only good against pure melee comps and you need to be able to print to win against anything else. Those pure melee comps are very rare, though, and that’s why the HRE army actually only really excels in mirror matches, because the HRE ranged units offer nothing special, so it’s mostly melee army vs melee army. And I have yet to see something more stupid than Landsknechte fighting Landsknechte. They clash and 2 secs later all are dead.

My point is: Arbaletriers, who should be weak to melee, have crazy melee armor. You NEED mangos. But mangos have fairly low hp and are countered easily by anti siege. Arbaletriers need to be counterable without siege, just like other units as well. Same goes for Grenadiers.

Here is the counter system of AoE 4 and how it is basically offering quite some options, while certain units just are outside of it due to not really having a cost efficient or reliable counter.

Units and their counter(s):

  • Knight: Spearman, CB. HC’s do also well. HRE MAA trade nicely when there are no CBs around. :+1:

  • MAA: CB, HC’s, Ribauldequins, Bees and somehwat mangos, Horse and camel archer do also well. :+1:

  • Spearmen: Archers, Ribauldequins, Bees, mangos to some extent (mangos are okay vs any kind of clumped up inf), MAA, Landsknechte. :+1:

  • Horsemen: Spearmen, Knights, MAA, Landsknechte. :+1:

  • Archers: Horsemen, Knights, MAA (if they can reach), mangos, Bees. :+1:

  • Crossbows: Horsemen, spearmen are okayish, not good, but can be cost efficient, Archers (in the sense that they are cost efficient vs CBs, but they are not a strong counter per se). And mangos and Bees ofc… :+1:

  • Hand Cannons: Mangos, Bees, anything that can kill them while costing much less (Archers esp), but they are among the harder to counter units. Their high price makes that okay, though. In most cases at least (expections are Streltsies and NoC HC’s). (Several ways to counter cost efficiently). :+1:

  • Mangos: Springalds, Bombards, Culverins, mass melee Cavalry, HC’s can be very effective when close enough. (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Bombards: Springalds, Culverins, mass melee cav, HC’s are again effective, if they can reach. :+1:

  • Anti Siege: Anti siege or melee cavalry. HC’s are as always effective as well. :+1:

Now lets see the special units:

  • Landsknechte: Damage. Just any kind of damage, but especially Archers and Camel Archers as well as Bees and to some degree also mangos. Burning oil lol. (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Mangudais: Their low hp and range makes them susceptible to ranged units altogether. They are also weak vs Bees and mangos. If spearmen can connect, they obliterate them. (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Tower Elephant: Spears, Bombards, Culverins to some extent, masses of melee units to surround them, HC’s (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • War Elephant: Spears, HRE MAA are effective, CB’s, Bombards, Culverins to some extent (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Zughe Nus: Like Archers (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Fire Lancers: Like Horsemen (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Longbows: Like Archers, although their range and rof makes them much more useful (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Horse Archers: Similar to Mangudais, but to a lesser extent thanks to their range (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Camel Rider: Like Knights (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Camel Archer: Similar to Magudais, but have more hp and very high dmg. Their low range, however, allows them to be countered by a wider array of units as well (Several ways to counter) :+1:

  • Arbaletriers: Bees and mangos, nothing else really (One real way to counter, which is countered easily by anti siege) :-1: :-1:

  • Grenadiers: Uncounterable. Esp. with 12 range Bombards behind them rendering mangos useless. Mangos also are not that effective against C-formation Grenadiers. Grenadiers are way too efficient and are way too hard to counter. Yes, it takes forever to get to them, but that does not justify them being a rofl stomp comp. They should be more accessible and much easier to counter. :-1: :-1: :-1:

  • Streltsies: Better and cheaper than the HC. Why? The Rus eco does not justify that. This offsets the counter system as well by quite a bit as it makes zero sense. :-1:

  • Chinese Bombards: What can I say? They counter also their counter. Completely off :-1: :-1:

And Network of Castles/Citadels messes with the counter system in its very own way. NoC is so strong that anti siege mass range English armies become so much more powerful than for any other civ. NoC makes every unit massively better, but goes through the roof for anythig that is ranged. English HC’s are pure insanity. They are machine gunners. :-1: :-1:

The game is very reasonable in most regards of its counter system. But there are units and mechanics that are just not in line with it, which leads to things being upside down.

These are army balance issues in the game in general. But looking at HRE specifically it shows that their own strenghts have way too many downsides and offer too little in too many situations. You can very effectively counter a HRE army comp wise. A stronger economy will always be able to just outmass the opponent, but when talking balance, a stronger economy cannot be the precondition as it is never guaranteed. HRE can have a powerful eco in theory, but they need to survive Feudal in a good manner. Also you can’t say that HRE, although being weaker in general, always aims towards outmassing the opponent due to their eco, which would justify their weakness. The HRE is not Zerg, why design them as such? The HRE can only sometimes overwhelm the opponent, when everything before that point went rather well for them, which is rare. Or when their high % landmarks just simply do their magic.

French, however, just take the map and oppress the opponent into being economically way behind. And together with the Arbaletriers this leads to the HRE being unable to beat the French. It is by far their worst match up and for many reasons (bad Feudal, very weak to knights mobility and arbs). The Rus are also very difficult, because they auto counter HRE in so many ways by just being Rus… Warrior Monks, Horse Archers and Streltsies are very hard to deal with as HRE. Some stupid Burgrave overwhelm timing push can work, though. But as I stressed many times, I really do not like the design behind it. You have a window of oppotunity, because you are suddenly presented with 5 barracks in one. That’s overkill and just shows that the HRE is so weak that they can have that without being bonkers op.

The MAA and Landsknechts comp is a fun comp. But it’s only really strong vs pure melee, has many weaknesses and is the only thing that is in any way advantageous for the HRE. That’s why they have their high % landmarks to offset their disadvantages. And that makes this civ so weird and limited. Its only strength is melee inf and melee inf is the weakest possible army comp in the game. It is inferior to cavalry and its mobility, which gets supported by range that on its own is already too effective vs melee inf… The HRE might have the funnest comp to play with, but their core strenghts are the weakest in the game. And as long as that is the case, the HRE will always be in a weird place.

Yes, the start with a prelate helped. But it changed nothing about the quality of the civ. It ignores the design flaws of the civ and the balance issues of the game in general. Once the flaws are gone, you can do minor tweaks to actually improve balance. But you need the basic framework for that and the HRE just doesn’t have it.

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This is the first time i see one of you , developers / microsoft workers responding to something bad the comunity says , well done .

I really hope you continue working like this because you seem like the only guy in microsoft that speak for us .

You seem frustrated … i understand the frustration…

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Honestly, its a bit overblown. But HRE late game is pretty strong. And prelates can actually inspire siege units, something I just recently found out. HRE 1v1 Imperial has favorable match ups against every other civ. Just print out cheap M@A/Spears to front for your siege or you can switch into Knight/Horsemen. The only real challenge is China Ming going into Grenadiers. But I find that mangonel, horsemen trade really well into them. Culverins can also poke away at gren mass if they go C-formation.

Its funny that the way they buff HRE is to make them skip the early game, booming right away into two TC or 7 min FC, 12 min Imp. Its good, but honestly they just feel really one dimensional.

We’re around, but it can sometimes get a bit complicated to respond. I am personally a big advocate for transparency, but that’s not the default mode around here because of the nature of the business (justifiably so in many cases). I mostly stick to the bug forums because it’s important to capture bugs and let you all know that you all heard when doing so. But know that we are here and we are listening.

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I don’t doubt that @SavageEmpire566 . As I been here for four years.

If you want my advice , tell your partners to be more like forgotten empires , basically like you . Transparency and responding to the concerns , is the key to maintain a healthy player base .

And heh , I know you are not in charge and this is not a complain either but you know … Making more content about the game showing it features and basically promoting the game post launch is another good idea .

Where are the dev diaries? :eyes: , you guys stopped publishing them .

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There have been a couple of dev diary/spotlight type initiatives since I’ve been here. Can you link me to the type you enjoy/hope to see?

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sure! but where do i find those dev diaries iniciatives? in this thread?

My ideas for dev diaries are : Civilizations , artstyle/visuals , process of making the game etcc

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@marcoracosta205 I would very much like to read those kind of dev diaries.

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Hi, im so glad to see that HRE start with a prelate ! It was one of my suggestion. BUT ! HRE need to be more special.

I just now think about something !

-when a prelate inspire a vill or unit, the prelate stock 1g.
They need to drop the gold in a monastery or regnitz.

Other suggestion and they dont need to be all include.

-meinwork palace now a monastery with the Blacksmith upgrade but can also make prelate. Its like a high armory monastery.

-burgrave palace now train inspire unit with +2armor +2damage +10% mov speed. They now train 100% faster

  • make the HRE deal epic fight againts the deli ! Hre can take sacred site at age 2. Just 2 civs while be able to do this and the deli vs HRE fight will be epic. The only way to go sacred site for hre is to go meinwork(new meinworl holy armory)

  • new tech upgrade : at age IV, you can research a tech the landskenetk : holy landskenethk they can’t die by range units !! Imagine !! Make the LD became a very special units. The last damage to kill they, need to be melee damage. SOOO if they get a lot of arrow in the face, 1 HP will remain to the LD and a single melee hit will be need to kill they. BUT you will need melee unit to deal against LD. Maybe drop there hp or damage

-HRE need monasteryyyy

Monastery can garnisoned 10 units but dont shoot, all the time unit are garnisoned it generate 1g/vill/5sec

At 1 monastery you get a 10% discount on prelate and the nearby barrack work 10% faster

At 2 you get 20% discount on prelate and nearby barrack work 20% faster

And finaly at 4,also nearby siege workshop work 20% faster

These are suggestion let me know what you think. i dont whant ALL these suggestion but i think HRE need some special ingredient.

Allow the TC to hold a relic…

Thoughts?