HRE Unique Unit Suggestion

Hi Everyone,

Today I wanted to talk about the HRE & some ways I think we can spice up the civ a little more by giving it some more zing & flavor. I believe the civ is good, but a bit boring. The objective of these changes is to increase the unit composition variability of the HRE playstyle, as well as strengthen their identity as an infantry/siege civilization. With this objective in mind I suggest a new unique unit to the HRE.

War Wagon: The unique HRE replacement for the Mangonel

So this unit’s role is the same as the Mangonel it replaces; the War Wagon is an anti-ranged siege unit. Initial design philosophy for the War Wagon was to create a more singularly focused siege unit that is more resilient to melee attacks. The principal method the War Wagon uses to achieve this melee resistance is the special ability to switch into two modes: Carriage mode & Wagon mode.

Modes: Whilst in ‘Carriage mode’ the War Wagon can move around has 0 Melee Armor, as well as a 50% slower attack speed. While in ‘Carriage mode’ the War Wagon cannot fire while moving but behaves like an archer, so it can ‘scoot & shoot’. While in ‘Wagon mode’ the War Wagon will be stationary, acquire 20 Melee Armor, and has base attack speed. The default mode of the War Wagon is in ‘Carriage mode’ & in order to go into ‘Wagon mode’ you must manually click a key. In order to exit ‘Wagon mode’ you must simply order your War Wagons to move. I believe the manual toggling of the modes is justified because 1. the unit is very strong, & 2. typical HRE compositions are very melee orientated which do not require micro to utilize effectively, you save micro in your melee composition & use it to manage your War Wagons.

Attack: Each Wagon fires 2 shots, as there will be two holes in each side of the wagon for the unit model. No, multiple sides cannot fire at once, that would be OP lol.

Base Stats -

Cost - 200 wood & 300 gold (500 resources total)

Train Time - 40 seconds

HP - 160 → 192 after Age 4 ‘Siege Works’ Tech

Movement Speed: 0.862 → 0.991 after Age 3 ‘Greased Axles’ Tech

Range: 8 tile range

Armor- Base Melee Armor: 0, Melee Armor (Wagon mode): 20

Armor (Cont.) - Base Ranged Armor: 20 → 30 after Age 4 ‘Siege Works’

Base Damage - 25 (x2) with +30 (x2) damage towards ranged units (ranged infantry & ranged cavalry)

Base Damage Example - 50 damage per burst to a non-ranged unit, 110 damage per burst to a ranged unit (ranged infantry & cavalry)

Rate of Fire - 2.125 (same as crossbowman), 4.25 in ‘Carriage mode’

Unique War Wagon Tech - Age 4 Tech ‘Hussite Wagons’ : Outfits the War Wagons with handcannons, improving their base damage to 35 (x2) - 300 wood, 700 gold, 1:30 research time

With this upgrade the War Wagon’s base damage raises to 70 damage per burst to a non-ranged unit, 130 damage per burst to a ranged unit (ranged infantry & cavalry)

Statistic Explanation:

-) This unit is meant to be a more specialized version of the Mangonel. The War Wagon highly excels at killing ranged units while also remaining very tanky against melee units with proper micro of the 2 modes. However the War Wagon cannot attack multiple units at once so an archer/xbow ball cannot be neutralized the same way one mangonel can. Therefore multiple War Wagons must be built, therefore the cost must be reflected as such.

-) Same train time as a Mangonel

-) The HP is calculated to have more HP than a regular Mangonel but still face the same damage profile from Springalds. Therefore Castle Age War Wagons will die to Springalds in 2 shots while War Wagons with the ‘Siege Works’ Tech in Imperial will require 3 shots from a Springald to die. This mirrors the exact damage pattern as Mangonels.

-) Due to the shorter range of the War Wagon, they have a slightly higher movement speed compared to Mangonels, while still remaining very slow. The higher movement speed also compensates for the fact that you must manually toggle into ‘Wagon mode’. Units even as slow as Spearmen can easily catch up to & destroy the War Wagon if it is left unguarded.

-) Mangonels have a 9 tile range, I wanted to make the War Wagons more effective against ranged units while preserving balance by making them even more vulnerable to Springalds. Springalds with their base 10 tile range easily out-range War Wagons. I do not want War Wagons to be able to destroy Springalds while also allowing War Wagons to out-range & defeat any ranged infantry/cavalry in the game.

-) The armor counts are explained via the ‘Modes’ section above. But to reiterate, the War Wagons ONLY have melee armor while stationary & in ‘Wagon mode’. In both modes the War Wagons retain their 20 base ranged armor.

-) Base damage & profiles are calculated to kill a single ranged infantry unit in one burst. The War Wagon loses the ability to damage multiple units at once, so I believe the high damage & attack speed are in balance. Also the attack speed is 50% slower while in ‘Carriage mode’.

I’ve also complied a quick pros & cons list comparing the War Wagon to the Mangonel it replaces:

  • Less vulnerable to melee attacks

  • More HP

  • Faster attack speed

  • Faster movement speed

  • No minimum range

  • & - Slightly cheaper overall, but more gold intensive

  • Cannot hit multiple units at once

  • Shorter Range than Mangonel

  • More micro intensive

  • Extremely vulnerable to Springalds/Culverin & to melee when retreating/unguarded

Final Notes: The War Wagons while moving are in ‘Carriage mode’ and therefore suffer from the typical siege weakness of dying near instantly to melee units. It is only while they are stationary that they obtain their melee armor. Fielding an entire army of War Wagons would be very easily countered as a single Springald would force you to move & be vulnerable to melee, or stay & eat Springald shots which completely outrange your War Wagons. Springalds would absolutely destroy this unit, especially after with their +2 range upgrade in Imperial.

Disclaimer: The numbers & statistics I’ve given to the War Wagon are just my initial thoughts, I tried to make the unit better than the Mangonel it replaces but not OP. I want this unit to remain a specialized anti-ranged siege unit like the Mangonel but operate in a different way while also being more tanky to melee units. Let me know your thoughts, thank you.

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I had also proposed the Hussite War Wagon, but in the castle age next to the Landsknecht (it would be good against heavy infantry), in feudal age I would put the Teutonic knight replacing the MAA (it would be good against light melee infantry) and in imperial age I would put the Reiter as a horse archer but who shoots a pistol (it would be good against heavy cavalry)…

Then you would have one or two UUs for each age:

Dark Age:Prelate (and I might add the Bavarian Villager cart)

Feudal Age:Teutonic Knight

Castle Age:Hussite War Wagon and Landsknecht

Imperial Age:Reiter

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It seems curious to me that there has not yet been talk of the Ministerialis for a single unit of the HRE. ________________________

– MINISTERIALIS –


Osprey, German-medieval-armies-1000-1300, pages 16-20 (For educational purposes).


It would be a good name for the “Men-at-arm” of the HRE, or to return to the Men-at-arm with Mazo a new type of unique unit typical of the civ, if not giving it some unique ability is even considered.

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I’d be already happy if the HRE received some more attention and interesting as well as unique things, instead of stagnating their way into the oblivion of mediocrity. All we know for sure is that there are new skins on the horizon. But new skins don’t do squat if the civs stays that bland as it is right now.

I am loving the ideas here. I am sick of HRE revolving around Aachen and men with maces, but nothing else. It’s so pathetic when compared to most other civs. But to be honest, most European civs are rather boring and bland. HRE is just the peak of blandness.

I thought about some sort of Black Rider unit for Imperial as well. But I believe the more pressing issue with HRE is finding unique ways of dealing with ranged units as that is the greatest threat to their heavy armor melee army composition.

If other civs get a ton of new unique units then I’m all for adding the Reiters ### ### then I begin to worry about the accessibility of AOE4 where there’s all these unique units which a new player would have to look up all these units & what they do before getting into the game.

I also wanted to prioritize the War Wagon unit over a Reiter because the only unique ‘Mangonel’ of sorts right now is the Chinese Nest of Bees. I think giving them a more powerful but specialized anti-ranged siege unit would be a cool way to spice up the civ.

I’m sorry but I have to completely go against your Teutonic Knight suggestion. Firstly, the Teutonic Order was never a part of the HRE, whereas Bohemia played a central role in the HRE, both being an Elector within the system as well as Emperors numerous times in the past.

Also adding an age 2 heavy knight is just a lazy way in my opinion to add to their design. Rus & French already have knights, & they have numerous techs & bonuses which are geared towards being a cavalry civ. Giving HRE unique cavalry would diminish the uniqueness of both the French & Rus as the age 2 knight civs but also reduce the HRE’s uniqueness of being a civ with kick ass infantry but average (quite good with Meinwork) cavalry.

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This is an interesting suggestion, I especially like the passages talking about how these Ministerialis were primarily used for guarding gates & fortifications. Maybe these units can provide bonus damage to towers when garrisoned? Or with a unique tech/upgrade be able to build walls like Delhi? Very interesting stuff!

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I’m happy you see what I’m trying to express here. I wanna spice up the civ while giving it a rare identity amongst the current civs as an infantry/siege specialist.

I’ve also been thinking of trying to incorporate the Electors within the game… something like a Ottoman Vizier Council but with each Elector requiring you complete certain objectives in the game before you can use them to ‘back’ your empire. Some electors requirements would be super easy to get like train X number of units, but some will have more difficult ones like ‘construct 20 emplacements’. With the easier requirements giving less beneficial rewards but the more difficult ones giving more substantial bonuses.

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I really like the Prelate and Landsknecht ideas and I consider HRE mace MaA almost a unique unit.

I only objectively assess Landsknecht could use a slight attack buff to reinforce their uniqueness and become more mainstream.

Yes, but the Teutonic Knight is more iconic and recognizable, but the Ministerial one wouldn’t be bad either…

#################### post:5, topic:239303"]
I thought about some sort of Black Rider unit for Imperial as well. But I believe the more pressing issue with HRE is finding unique ways of dealing with ranged units as that is the greatest threat to their heavy armor melee army composition.
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Yes, it seems good to me…

#################### post:5, topic:239303"]
If other civs get a ton of new unique units then I’m all for adding the Reiters ### ### then I begin to worry about the accessibility of AOE4 where there’s all these unique units which a new player would have to look up all these units & what they do before getting into the game.
[/quote]

It’s not that it changes much, at most it would change in the imperial age…

#################### post:5, topic:239303"]
I also wanted to prioritize the War Wagon unit over a Reiter because the only unique ‘Mangonel’ of sorts right now is the Chinese Nest of Bees. I think giving them a more powerful but specialized anti-ranged siege unit would be a cool way to spice up the civ.
[/quote]

Yes, it can be… it can have bonuses against various types of units…

#################### post:5, topic:239303"]
Firstly, the Teutonic Order was never a part of the HRE
[/quote]

True, but the Teutonic Knights served under Frederick Barbarossa, Holy Roman Emperor…

#################### post:5, topic:239303"]
Also adding an age 2 heavy knight is just a lazy way in my opinion to add to their design. Rus & French already have knights, & they have numerous techs & bonuses which are geared towards being a cavalry civ. Giving HRE unique cavalry would diminish the uniqueness of both the French & Rus as the age 2 knight civs but also reduce the HRE’s uniqueness of being a civ with kick ass infantry but average (quite good with Meinwork) cavalry.
[/quote]

But a Teutonic knight in the sense of infantry, it would not be a cavalry unit, it would only be the replacement of the MAA; the other option would be to add a villager like its AoE 3 counterpart, which would be the Bavarian villager wagon…

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I think the Landsknecht are a great unit with amazing combat stats but die way too easily to justify their crazy high gold cost. To deploy these troops you effectively have to go Regnitz & get relics.

A slight macro shift to be a little less gold intensive & a little more food would solve these issues.

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I see your point with having the Teutonic Knight being dismounted but we already have suped-up Men at Arms with this civ alongside the Landsknecht. In my eyes HRE does not need more infantry buffs (except slight changes to Landsknecht cost).

Also while the wagons aren’t shown in game, HRE villagers already have a built in 40% extra resource capacity. So the settler wagon uniqueness is already in game in a sense.

In that case, the men at arms should be remodeled and remade into Teutonic knights. Because they might have different stats, but they sure as hell don’t feel like a unique unit. Just your typical man-at-arms guy. And this goes for the rest of the civ, it’s bland. Even the landmarks look terrible.

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Hello, I hope you are doing very well and regarding your post: I really like what you propose.

At some point I thought that it would be good to add a unique building from the order of the Teutons to this civilization HRE.

Following the mechanics of relics giving bonuses, something similar could be done with this unique building: for each relic that is captured and brought into this building, the Teutonic Order units gain some military bonus, for example:

1 relic = 10% more health

2 relics = 10% more attack

3 relics = 10% more speed.

To prevent these units from being too powerful as a requirement they must be somewhat expensive and only cost gold.

On the other hand, some new units that I would like to see are:

Foot Halbbrüders

foot_halbbruders

Foot Ritterbruders

foot_ritterbruders

Ritterbruders

ritterbruder

Mounted Crossbowmen

mounted_crossbowmen_info

Greetings.

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#################### post:13, topic:239303"]
I see your point with having the Teutonic Knight being dismounted but we already have suped-up Men at Arms with this civ alongside the Landsknecht. In my eyes HRE does not need more infantry buffs (except slight changes to Landsknecht cost).
[/quote]

Of course my idea is to replace the MAA with the Teutonic knight, as they did with the Abbasid Ghulam…

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