I don't care about siege not having little men around

[UrbanizedGem684]

Okay, first of all I want to say that having siege crews is not going to magically solve all the problems that I see in this game, nor is it going to make me fall in love with it in one night. It is a detail indeed. But this detail compounds with many other details (or lack of them) and small annoyances that eventually at the end of the line become significant enough to dumb down the game’s experience and take away part of the fun. I don’t expect everyone in the franchise to weight the same such a detail but for many of us who used to have it and is now suddenly taken away have no reason to be happy about it.

Having said that, I thank you for admitting that there are too many people who ask for it. I don’t mind that you say you don’t care about what those too many people want but at the same time I don’t see why we should be listening to you as this post doesn’t make any point whatsoever. You’re not telling us if and why you disagree with having siege crews nor how would siege crews hurt you. It’s just a purposeless opposition.
On the contrary actually, you’re just trying to portray us as ignorants of what RTS is all about although you first seem to ignore that AoEIII had manned siege (alongside several other RTS games). That was cringe. Imagine someone making a post right now “I dont care about Zoom levels” then proceeds in calling everyone else unlearned fools that are not familiar with the genre and explaining how there’s no camera to scroll when playing chess.

If you just dont care about not having siege crews then it’s inferred that you also don’t care about having them and you’re fine with them. So I really just take this whole post as being positive to adding crews. Thank you for supporting the cause.

[ArdeiGras1576]

It looks light years away from a Fortnite cartoon version. It doesn’t have those purposely exaggerated features that define a cartoonish look. Just put it next to AoE Online, or Civilization VI and you will see what I mean.

Looking at AoE4 is more like looking at an impressionist painting of the period brought to life

, with the units having some slight renaissance vibes (not an artist, but at least that’s my impression).

This is Fortnite:

This is Civ6:

This is AoE Online:

This is AoE4:

ButI feel we’re turning this into a graphics discussion, which isn’t the point of this thread.

[CRothlisberger]

In no way can a lack of siege crews contribute to dumbing down the game. They have no function in the game, it’s purely an aesthetic thing.

Every argument for them can be summarized as people like the way it looks.

[UrbanizedGem684]

It doesn’t for you. It does for me. Also, I do not know what you think of as dumbing down and what function exactly means to you but visuals are obviously part of the overall experience of the game. In that sense visuals like crews have a function, they contribute to that experience. And their lack of equals to a dumbing down for those who value them and actually already had them for more than a decade now. A matter of aesthetic would be whether the crews are pretty or not.

[KingStarscream9]

Overall quality? It looks really fun to play? Other than that I can’t think of a more sincere way of articulating the monetary worth of the game. It seems to appeal to both people who value quantity and the people who value quality. Except for the graphics. But graphics haven’t been a big deal since 2002 and are certainly very very far from a dealbreaker in this case.

If the game never came with campaigns or a sufficient number of civs I absolutely wouldn’t hesitate to criticize the product as I have constantly done with AOE3DE.

[AndyPXIII]

@TabletopLamp523

I am 35, I have played RTS since 1998

Howdy, short-timer

[CRothlisberger]

I’m not saying liking the way they look is a bad argument, but it is the only one and no more compelling than the arguments against crews.

@UrbanizedGem684

It doesn’t for you. It does for me. Also, I do not know what you think of as dumbing down

I have never heard the phrase “dumbing down” in relation to aesthetics. I don’t see how it makes any sense in that context. It is however often used in reference to gameplay mechanics as in dumbing them down and making them easier or less complex.

@UrbanizedGem684

In that sense visuals like crews have a function, they contribute to that experience.

That is a useless definition since it applies to literally everything. I mean function as in functional, as in in actually having some mechanical function.

They are purely a visual component. The crews don’t do anything other than look a certain way. That is definitely in the category of aesthetics.

If crews had some function such as being killable so siege could be stolen then that would be a different conversation.

[Khansa5234]

@sohanandrei

Can you name a game at this price range that gives surreal experiences with regards to graphics, and is inherently replayable?

That’s the problem. People will quote TBS games or other games and you will be like “well that’s not RTS so maybe you should play that”. Maybe that is why RTS is dying? AOE IV is meant to be a REVIVAL?

“Not unlike adventure games, the RTS was a victim of 3D. Both genres had been critical to the success of PC gaming, but as fancy new tech and game engines were emerging, they both struggled to make the leap to that extra dimension.”

Can real-time strategy come back from the brink of death?

“Having reach something of a design pinnacle already, the RTS genre had no means of evolving other than overcomplicating itself”

Is Real-time Strategy Dead?

“the demand for RTS games still exists—it’s just pent up from the wait "the adoption of the hardware to implement the next-generation RTS designs.“

“They could do their innovative design with much lower visual fidelity and get most of what they want, but then it becomes a budget title.”

““breathtakingly beautiful” RTS games aren’t a total pipe-dream. He predicts a boom for the genre when 64-bit systems and a DirectX 10-compatible videocard are considered to be low-end on the hardware scale. “Once that has become mainstream, it’ll be a race by studios to position themselves,”“

“Gamers want these games. They’ll pay for these games. But they also have to be measurably superior than what’s already out on the market. To do that, the hardware has to catch up.”

Stardock founder on the future of RTS. (Hint: It's not death)

“ If the game delivers what fans want, we’ve got another solid RTS game in our hands, after all this time. “

Will Age of Empires IV help restore the RTS genre? - Gaming | esports.com

[Broscarmania]

Just put a single man behind the sieges while moving, then it dissapears while the yellow ghost works to unpack, and then it reappears when is shooting, thats it, it doesnt have to have a single more animation more than being behind and moves his legs and drop dead and perhaps rise one arm when shooting (would be cool)
If AoE3 could do it more than 15 years ago, so the 4 can

[ArdeiGras1576]

@Khansa5234

Both genres had been critical to the success of PC gaming, but as fancy new tech and game engines were emerging, they both struggled to make the leap to that extra dimension.

I think all games struggled when making the leap to 3D, all games looked terrible at the beginning of this technology. Yet, take Warcraft 3, one of the most successful RTS games of all times, that came out around this time, was more popular by miles than its predecessor and is still being played to this date. This is merely the opinion of a random gaming journalist, which we all know the quality level of. What I meant was usually competitive, replayable games and surreal graphics aren’t synonymous.

@Broscarmania

Just put a single man behind the sieges while moving, then it dissapears while the yellow ghost works to unpack, and then it reappears when is shooting, thats it

Wouldn’t it be weird then when you are attacking the siege unit and the man behind it just stands there like a ghost which you can’t attack, just looking at you? Which version would you prefer, siege units without crews, or the ghost soldier watching you kill the unit?

[Khansa5234]

@sohanandrei

opinion of a random gaming journalist, which we all know the quality level of.

What is the quality level of journalists and Game developers? It’s so easy to shrug off counter arguments by making baseless assumptions on the sources itself which is actually quite common to people who try to play down the need of graphics. They are low grade journalists because they disagree with you?

If it’s a journalist article “low grade journalists”, if it’s reddit, steam, or any other community “irrelevant opinions”. That is in no way a fair perspective on the community opinion of what people want.

It’s hilarious how when people will sources articles, posts etc. they are told “you can’t represent the majority” but for some reason source less opinions appear to seem like they are representing the majority.

When AOE II players complain “the game will do good without them”

When AOE players complain in general “AOE players just aren’t accepting of change and are irrelevant”.

thanks for invalidating the majority of people who will buy the game

[ArdeiGras1576]

Maybe you thoroughly enjoy reading gaming articles, so I appologise if that bit offended you, that wasn’t my intention. I sometimes skim through them myself, mostly for news, but wouldn’t use them as reference to my points, as I don’t think they hold any water as quality of analysis. I gave you counter arguments to those references, and I’m more interested in your opinion with regards to those arguments than my ambivalence to gaming journalism.

[UrbanizedGem684]

You claimed that “in no way can lack of crews contribute to a dumbing down” and I explained to you in what way it can as apparently you were using an irrelevant definition while interpreting what I meant by dumb down. Now, if you don’t value visual satisfaction as much or never experienced how fullfilling crews looked in AoEIII compared to the older titles, you obviously have a hard time to see how it dumbs it down. That’s ok for me. You can love the current sieges as much as you want.
I merely answered to your specific statement and I suggest you look up the definition of dumb down since it applies in that context as well. We had crews->crews get removed->simplification is occurred a visual component gets removed. That’s a dumbing down.
The game overall suffers greatly from oversimplifications, be it in visuals or be it in gameplay. Crews are a part of it.

@CRothlisberger

They are purely a visual component. The crews don’t do anything other than look a certain way. That is definitely in the category of aesthetics.

We are leaning towards a philosophical discussion now but I couldn’t hold myself from commenting on what a horrible logical dichotomy you have applied here. Is there anything in a video game that is not a purely visual component? Everything is a visual, I don’t know why are you putting crews apart as a separate ‘aesthetical’ component. But even that is questionable as aesthetics are all about how beautiful something looks, not whether it exists or not. Crews do not exist. And it’s not that sieges look ugly right now due to crews, they look absurd. First and foremost because they are a downgrade from what the franchise already managed to do in its ‘III’ title.
I could go by your logic and argue as others have already done in a more elaborate way before me, why don’t we remove the soldier figures that hold the swords and spears as well?
I have yet to see an argument against crews that holds ground.

[Khansa5234]

The point of arguing is not that my opinion is better than yours, or how I perceive the game is more superior to how you perceive the game. The entire purpose of all these threads is to push forward the game. The point of sourcing other stuff is to show and gain perspective of what the entire gaming community is wanting in this day and age. Not just a few RTS obsessed lovers want.

Articles give a really good sense of that because journalists read through the history of games, they read through thousands of community posts and talk to gaming developers to better judge the point of their stories. It’s a far more objective way of seeing a representation of the community rather than “I want this or I don’t want this therefore everyone doesn’t want it and it’s irrelevant”.

The reason why surreal graphics are important, despite if you are making a photorealistic game or a cartoony anime is the level of detail that every successful game is doing in 2021. Not comparing to games in the past because you are not making 2001 games.

Name one currently top game that is low texture, basic graphics and is in the esport community? A game with generic civilisations that don’t act faithful to the AOE genre, will lose the AOE fan base who picked up the game and we’re blown out of their minds for a game that was beyond its capabilities at the time.

“ We’re heading into a new era of physically-based rendering, where the properties of individual textiles and materials are simulated to produce natural, reactive environments. “We’ve had to develop GPU friendly, highly parallel physical simulation algorithms, which in many cases has required us to rethink algorithms at a fundamental level,””

Photorealism - the future of video game visuals

The game isn’t just being made for the RTS fanatics. It’s being made for the entire gaming community to bring new players into RTS, as well as keep the old ones. To do that you need to look at what the games of this era are doing. If you invalidate all the top games of this era because you think AOE IV being RTS cannot compete, you doomed the franchise from the get go.

Meaning this game is just being made for the cult like RTS die hard fans who don’t care if the game is not up to par, they just want a RTS game.
As a fan of AOE since I was a kid, the last thing I’d want AOE to become is just another low level game.

[ReanuKeeves00]

Appeal. I prefer the graphical style of AoE IV much much more than the screenshots you propose are “better”.

[KittyWolf214]

You’re in luck. Age of Empires III has a similar graphics and you could play that while waiting for AoE IV to be released.

[ArdeiGras1576]

@Khansa5234

Not just a few RTS obsessed lovers want.

@Khansa5234

for the cult like RTS die hard fans

Interesting choice of words.

@Khansa5234

The point of sourcing other stuff is to show and gain perspective of what the entire gaming community is wanting in this day and age.

You’re gaining perspective of the opinion of the person writing that article, or even worse, the people who paid them. I’d much rather read opinions of people, than some media outlet, for the sake of objectiveness.

@Khansa5234

Name one currently top game that is low texture, basic graphics and is in the esport community?

All of them. Esports are never about graphics.

@Khansa5234

“ We’re heading into a new era of physically-based rendering, where the properties of individual textiles and materials are simulated to produce natural, reactive environments. “We’ve had to develop GPU friendly, highly parallel physical simulation algorithms, which in many cases has required us to rethink algorithms at a fundamental level,””

You keep quoting these random articles that have nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

As a fellow beta tester, you know as well as I do that AoE4 has enough features to appeal to a wider audience. Some would say more than enough.

[ToLLs96]

Major sports games do not have realistic graphics or art style. Look at dota 2 or league of legends, their art styles are not very realistic. Even Counter Strike, which is the most famous in the FPS esport scene, doesn’t have better graphics than Battlefield or COD. I mean, to become a great sport, games have to be very competitive and fun in the first place.

However, I think RTS should not be built with the sporting scene in mind, but rather fun and with a lot of respect for the community.

[BossPaprika1647]

I don’t really think Photorealism is the way to go for Aoe.
There are also tons of successful games out nowadays that don’t bother with photorealism and have their own unique style.

Critiquing Game Visuals: Common Problems and How to Solve Them

In a big game’s conference like GDC notice how the conversation isn’t around “how to make your game realistic” but rather “how to make the visuals work for your style”. Realism just isn’t a catch-all solution to all videogames.
Also an example of realism not actually achieving a desired effect would be the Disney remakes:

The Lion King Official Trailer

[Khansa5234]

@sohanandrei

I’d much rather read opinions of people, than some media outlet, for the sake of objectiveness.

whose opinion are you judging then?

@sohanandrei

All of them. Esports are never about graphics.

A game without high level aesthetic appeal competing with games that have both aesthetic appeal and gameplay is asking for a failed game. Especially when your past games like AOE II DE, and AOE III DE have the game play you want, as well as the aesthetic appeal. Basically you are just forking out another $90 for another AOE game. Not a better one, and not a different one. In fact, a far more basic one. Hence why I truly believe AoM DE or AoM 2 will knock AOE IV out of the park!

@sohanandrei

You keep quoting these random articles that have nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

The “random” articles justify why people want people on siege weapons, why people care about the tiniest graphical details. Because the era of basic graphics is gone. Technology evolves, and so does the demand. Nowadays if stone doesn’t crumble like actual stone in a game, that’s seen as a design flaw. People are so use to these small refined details in games that a simplified game could not satisfy that hunger. Everyone’s expectations who want small graphical details in AOE are not thinking lightyears ahead of technology. They are basing it on the games they see all the time and are use to. All the games that don’t argue gameplay vs graphics, because they deliver both.

@sohanandrei

As a fellow beta tester, you know as well as I do that AoE4 has enough features to appeal to a wider audience. Some would say more than enough.

I saw the BASICS of all the features. Yes, it had all the features to make this game into one of the best. I totally agree. But it’s the absolute basics of it. Like a totally unfinished game that is in its early stages of development. Like someone coming up with a basic storyboard with all the cool features in it and you thinking “omg this is going to be so awesome when you polish this and show the final product!!!” but then the person goes “uhm, but this is the final product”.

And that’s how it feels like it is being sold to the community. As a basic platform so that modders or DE developers do that unfinished job for them. It’s like going to the clothing store to buy a shirt, and they give you a plain white tailored top and say “go paint the colours yourself”. You are basically relying on the after development to take the game to where it’s supposed to go. That’s a massive risk at production launch.

As it is, it’s not going to create the wow factor of 2021 that AOE II did in 1999 or the recent versions of AOE II DE and AOE III DE which had their top players literally thanking the developers for doing what they did. It’s going to be a basic game that if given the chance may become something worth hyping about in the future. How long in the future? Don’t know.

@ToLLs96

Major sports games do not have realistic graphics or art style. Look at dota 2 or league of legends, their art styles are not very realistic

They are not realistic but they are hyper aesthetic. They have all the tiniest details down pat. CS may not compete with the crazy realism of Battlefield or COD, but does it lack in the details or texture department?

League of Legends has beautiful graphics due to level of detail despite being anime-like.

Characters they can turn into holographics to hype people up even more

Again Dota 2 which also has high level of detail in the game

They may be one over the other but they all have the basic requirements, they provide detail and 4K graphics that makes the gamplay so much more attractive. These games don’t need an argument of gameplay vs graphics because they deliver both. We are in an era where gameplay and graphics are MUTUAL, not competing. If a game doesn’t have graphics, = fail, if a game doesn’t have gameplay = fail.

@BossPaprika1647

I don’t really think Photorealism is the way to go for Aoe.
There are also tons of successful games out nowadays that don’t bother with photorealism and have their own unique style.

I agree. AOE IV is beyond the realm of photo realism and into the more CIV 6 style. Which isn’t bad at all. But the level of detail in the game is the most bare minimum, that you will not find such over simplicity anywhere. They literally carbon copied AOE II’s generic civ idea. If you add cartoony level of detail, but high level of detail, that takes an average game to a stand out game.

Adding things like people manning the siege weapons, manning the boats, and other small intricate details will make this game 1 BILLION times better than Civ 6. And then I can definitely see it taking off as a massive competitor in the game. Especially in immersiveness by giving each civ their unique culture representation, not a generic one. “oh you are european, here’s a european civ”, “oh you are arab, here’s an arab civ”.

but I also cannot underplay the unit details. that HAS to improve. I’ve never seen such basic units in my life. It’s neither aesthetically pleasing, nor historically accurate. If you want plain readability, why make a PC game? make an Arcade game. Nothing is more readable than this.