I don't feel like the Mangudai change was well targeted

Disagree if you think I’m wrong. This change isn’t hitting what made the unit too difficult to deal with. Reducing it’s movement speed isn’t going to make an incredible difference in any unit matchups. It’ll still win everything when it’s massed, and it can still nuke trebs until it is.

Mangudai nerf was unneccesary IMO


It’s pretty obvious it’s not going to do a lot but at least it makes the unit the same speed as all the other cavalry archers (Kipchak, Cav Archer, Camel archer).

Isn’t the main problem with the unit just against civs with bad archers/skirms? Most good archers still wreck mangudai. The unit does feel like it produces more “Civ wins” than any other single unit.

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I feel like this is to counter balance steppe lancer buff… both are tiny.
After full tech and bonuses, Kipchaks are still faster tho, even before nerf


Kipchak speed doesn’t count the 15% speed bonus from the cumans. Even without husbandry they were faster than Mangudai with husbandry


Oh right, forgot about that extra 5% in imp.

My contention is that once the mangudai production starts, you can’t stop it. within that caveat it was too good at what it did. ergo, sniping trebs instantly even under castle protection, raiding, killing anything on the map pretty handedly, etc.

What if that’s exactly what they wanted?
A tiny nerf, which still let’s the unit be the core of a Mongol army, but makes it slightly easier to deal with it.

I think it’s good that way.


They should nerf their attack vs siege or trebs at least not the speed

Isn’t it so significant nerf?
Movement speed is very crucial especially vs Camels, Cavarly. Now Mangudai is easily countable by Camels, and only 0.05 difference movement speed from Knight line.

I personally concerned about recent patch direction. they nerf everything except archer/knight line. Arambai was nerfed significantly in the last patch. Elephant had been nerfed in every patch. Imperial Camel was also nerfed.
Now meta and civ characteristics are more boring than several months ago. I think game in KOTD3 was more optimal than present state.


I think that the nerf aimed more against the effectiveness of the mangudai against cavalry units. Now they can’t micro them like before anymore.


Keep in mind that this same patch buffed Steppe Lancer, Cannon Galleon, Throwing Axeman, Malay Battle Elephant, Karambit, Organ Gun and Serjeant.

steppe lancers, serjeants, malay elephants, karambit, organ gun and other units were all buffed.
“they nerf everything except archers and knights”.
yeah okay.
one could argue, like the guy above me posted, they also buffed throwing axeman as well.

literally a chief complaint about the mangudai is always about how strong it is and how hard it is to kill.
they’ve made it easier to kill and people complain.


I promise you the microability of the Mangudai has barely been affected.

The main problem with killing a ranged unit in mass is stagger firing until it finds a chokepoint. You can’t surround them even if you are slightly faster (they’re much faster, and much larger, than archers, so you literally don’t have the surface area to trap them like Arbalests even if you could catch them which most cavalry will still have trouble with) and once they get into a advantageous position, their damage hasn’t been affected and they’ll still melt you.

Camels were already faster than Mangudai and in top play, Camel civs were not go-to counterpick civs for the Mongols. This speed will not change that. The problem with camels isn’t that they can’t engage the Mangudai. The problem with camels is once the Mangudai get massed the camel’s utterly pitiful pierce armor gets them shredded before they can do any damage.

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Yeah, I never said that it was a big effect, just that was what they were probably aiming for…

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Yeah, and my OP makes the claim that they very seriously mistargeted the changes. If you think that’s what they’re aiming for and you don’t think it’ll have the effect they wanted, it sounds a lot like you agree.

It still nukes trebs, and without trebs, you can’t stop them from massing. If you can’t stop them from massing, they’re still an absolute auto-win button.

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They’re still not ultra dangerous in Castle Age. Other CA are similar at that stage without the high initial investment. Heavy Scorpion mass also really deals with FU Mangudai+Hussar well, I’ve used it to great effect before.

I’d actually prefer Magyar CA over Mangudai often just because it’s so much easier to open and scale then Mangudai, and the lategame potential is just as good with Magyars composition.

I don’t think they’re too strong, I think they’re appropriately strong for Mongols. A small speed dip is a small nerf to bring them in line with other CA. If anything, they shouldn’t get the incredible siege options they get on top of Mangudai. Drill SO? Come on.

If they were an auto-win button, we’d see a higher win rate for Mongols at all levels. We really don’t; Franks are the civ with an auto win button, and it’s much simpler than Mongols.

Finally Mangudai has been nerfed. Thanks

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Really? I thought Mangudai killed siege easily. Also, Hussar is usually good against scorpion due to pierce armor and speed.

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Yeah exactly, like the 5 gold reduction of the SL…

The point is, it’s a nerf, but one that’ll change a lot of things. Simply now mangudais in small numbers need to be more careful to avoid occasionaly that an higher number of knights get on top of them.