I predict Ottomans will be the new king of dark aggression!

The recent update to the PUP made all ottoman military buildings (both the production and tech buildings [bsm uni]) 33% cheaper!! AND now Ottomans start with 200w…

I had already suggested in another thread how you could open up military academy almost immediately and only delay your age up by 40s…but now?

You absolutely SHOULD drop a 100w barracks ASAP, at the very very start of the game on any open landmap and train 2 spearman!! Just using 1 villager to build barracks you can have 2 spears out by 60s?!!! Not even mongols can make 2 spearman that fast; and bc of the extra starting wood you WILL NOT have to chop any wood to transition from 2 spears straight to feudal aging macro.

So we’re talking 30s build time and 120f taken away from your fast feudal macro but those 2 spears can be at enemy mine at 1min 40s? Sub 2min?? Whereby you can more than absolutely delay him by at least as much as you just dleayed yourself? Heck if you force a tower out of him you already won that.

Currently before this patch hit i was doing military academy plus barracks dark age rush vs mali if i scout they put a pit down immediately(150w), if they delayed the pit then i would just open military academy and macro feudal…but now? This same opening is effectively 100w (chopping) cheaper??? Bc straggler tree (though much closer than before) are not pressed right up against the TC, not having to cut 100w is gonna save me more than 150 seconds villager gathering time. Sooo that military academy plus barracks plus tower in the same timing as before?

Mongols move aside!!!

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yeah seems feasible, but why the MS? (they’re schools not academies btw)
their production rate for a mere spearman is so slow, im not sure its the best choice in DA already.

i feel like saving that vil time for something else, and then waiting until you can get to feudal with a BS +MS is better strategically, especially considering the poor return rate on spearmen (which i reckon they might eventually buff, even if it staggers per age)

someone else can do the actual math but thats 200w 100s (mining camp as well) just for a free spear every few minutes? cant remember what the actual training time is (omfg, t t is censored)

i am surprised they decided to double down on the wood gain, as opposed to just going for the 33% discount. i think it might be too much, rather give them more starting stone, instead of W, so they cant rush spears as easily

Idk. It could maybe little OP as it looks on paper.

Nah! Mongols will always be my favorite :smiley: But have to check things out !
Thx for sharing good info dude.

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Interesting BUT 2 spearmen in dark age can be defeated easy by a few villagers, so yes you can delay them by making villagers attack your spearmen and lose time but you will have to check if the time lost compensates your time lost.

Same happens to mongol, in team games I ever do horsemen at dark age to get some fun but I got very surprised when attacking villagers with 2 horsemen and they counter attacked my horsemen.

spearman have 80hp and 8 attack in dark age with 1.88s attack speed; vs 50hp 6 attack and 3.88s attack speed; by a few vils you mean like 6? And you don’t need to win the fight as spears, u just need to idle; so if you stabbing 2 or 3 and he pulls those hurt ones home; thats a win! EVEN better if he pulls several in hopes of getting a surround and you react fast enough and cause him even more idle time chasing your spears. It’s better than the English MAA dark age Rush b/c spearman aren’t slow and 8 by 2 attack isn’t something you can just ignore.

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I #### # ##### other thread pre-patch explaining the associated cost of making a Military school asap; however a spearman and archer for that matter WITHOUT a BSM will train at 67s; thats 80 resources worth per 67s; that’s worth 1.79 villagers; it would take 4min 30s to payoff doing just spears/archers. But b/c you’d have 4 out by the time you hit feudal (assuming you went for JUST MS opening then back to feudal macro); The military school would be paid for and you’d only be about 40s behind on age up. ACTUALLY you’ll be less than 40s behind normal age up time b/c you start with 50 more wood which is equal to 75s of a villager gathering, being I had 3 villagers gathering that 50w to make my mining camp that’s 25s saved! so you’re ONLY 15s behind standard age up AND you got a whole freaking Military school??

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Yeah I know you are seeking idle time, that’s what I said you need to compensate, will be hard to get kills with 2 spearmen.

You don’t need any kills. Idle time = Vils not working. Any second spent trying to fend off spears is a win for you. I’ve you had played aoe2 you would know how a drush works and what is needed in order to be successful, a vil kill should be super rare, but idle time is the end game.

You can’t keep adding this discount to everything, you’re already making a dark age rax with spearmen. So you’ve lost the bonus there. You’re definitely delaying up time even more than your calculations are working out. Try run it, and come back and tell me you’re only 15sec behind :joy:

I agree the rush is a good choice, I’ve started doing it as well. But I’m still trying to decide on the feasibility of that MS so early, I don’t think the delayed up time is worth it. But I’m too lazy to do the actual math. A load of free spears that take 4:30 to produce doesn’t help much, if they were archer or cav I would understand. Or maybe specifically against franks or rus(rus early Knights rare nowadays I think?)

But against everyone else? You’ve delayed up time by 250res + vil idle time.(200w + 100s -50s free + idle time walking back and forth to build this)

Wtf has gone wrong with the censorship here… like it’s just getting worse over time

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I did do the math wrong!!

If you just open up MS doing the 5 vil long mining you lose 15s in walk time (roundtrip) and 13.33s of feudal macro gathering on stone mining. This delay is worth about 100 resources. So this puts you 30s behind if you’re going to go 7 on food 3 on gold; however you should NOT in this case go 7 and 3 split but rather 2 on gold immediately after cutting 50w and 10 to 11 on food before diverting future vils to wood in prep for your 2nd house. Having a split like so will help eat into the 30s deficit, also adding 1 extra villager on landmark will garner you an additional 14s saved (assuming you have 5 building compared to 4).

So under these stipulations you will only be 10 to 15 ish sec behind with a MS to show for it.

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I tried this last night, it definitely confuses the AI and makes them do dumb stuff. I feel like a player could just make a tower or mongols can move their tc closer to the gold. It’s still difficult to even get there in time to prevent their age up. I like this build tho, makes me feel safe having a tiny army so early. Was able to down the AI within 15 minutes each game, but they were reacting in stupid ways, a human would be more challenging.

To be fair you’re not doing this to Mongols because for the first 4mins they’ll be able to double produce their units; unless you’re China you won’t be able to match those numbers. Other civs however can’t move their TC to cover their gold. Lastly you don’t have to win the game decisively in dark age, but if you delay the guy here and there and there again, chances are you’re getting yourself in a better situation to win.

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