Those things are not in the same category. Ranked is meant to be loosely historical and adding a cobra car would not be history at all. Though historical liberties have been taken the devs have never added a futuristic unit. However, adding a hero unit from history and adding a civilization(Mayans) which could not possibly fight a future civilization (Spanish) are in the same category of “Things that couldn’t possibly fight future civilizations.” Thus what you said has no relation to what I said.
What is your definition of “loosely” historical? How loose do you allow us to accept?
Cobra car is definitely obviously VERY historical:
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lol, cobra car always makes me laugh.
Anyway, it’s not what I want but what the intention of the game is. The game being called “Age of Empires” should be based around times of actual Empires which at least in my mind, hasn’t existed since England’s world dominance. The game can be loosely historical around the history that is meant to be portrayed. As of yet, the 3k civs are way out of timeline meant to be portrayed a thus I dislike the civs but not heroes which could fit in the timeline.
Edit: Heroes as a unit in general, I dislike 3k and thus their heroes, but wouldn’t mind if Mongols had Genghis Khan
Eh, you put it into the another topic.
That description was just to explain that the flaming camel is not as specific as the historical figures so your purpose of mentioning it did not work. You want to oppose people who dislike the heroes because they think the heroes make the civs very specific to a certain period, but the flaming camel is not a more specific thing (like it still technically can be created multiply and in any time) than the heroes so you can be hard to refute them with the design of the flaming camel and Tatars.
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The flaming camel does specify the civilizations time period though to the time of Timur so having Timur as their hero would make perfect sense. The question isn’t whether they could have used flaming camels in the future, but when they actually did which was only in 1 battle and thus specifies their civilization’s time period in the exact same way a hero does.
When you play Tatars, you train the flaming camels, you still totally can assume that this is another warlord adopt this strategy in maybe earlier centuries or later centuries as the concept is not that special and uncopiable. As I said, you can technically create it in any period. It’s not surprising that there were possible to have other battles use it in other periods. That would be a reasonable hypothesis that the concept is possible to be used not only by Tamerlane.
Conceptually it’s impossible that the Wei forces could be led by Cao Cao himself in a 5th century battle. Once there is a certain historical figure, the battle must be in his/her lifetime. Well, you can still hypothesize what if Cao Cao living in the 5th century, but that would just lose its reasonability as it is a fact that Cao Cao died in 220.
To me the comparison between the Flaming Camel and the heroes of Three Kingdoms is somehow like comparing between “what if yesterday I had a pizza instead of noodles”, which was possible, and “what if I was a Roman consul”, which just impossible.
I guess one of the reasons people don’t like specific historical figures in ranked matches might be that it makes the hypothesis lose more reasonability. (My English is not that good, not sure if the word reasonability accurately expresses what I want to say…) Like, even though we already lose lots of reasonability by having Aztecs able to fight Japanese, but we don’t need to make every battle is Cuauhtémoc vs Nobunaga.
By the way personally I can tolerate historical figures in there but only when every civ has so. I indeed understand why people don’t accept them so I won’t advocate this idea. As for the 3 heroes of Three Kingdoms, I think renaming them to something generic like “Lord” can be a nice try to ease the hatred. For more, I’d say just replace the heroes with general things that can be trained multiply, like Wooden/Mechanical Ox replacing Liu Bei for the healing aura.
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Your English is actually pretty good, didn’t notice until you told me.
Anyway, your argument that flaming camels could be made again is true, just like how theoretically someone with the same name and goal as Timur could come along in the future. So if we are to stretch the imagination to believe that flaming camels could come along again which is extremely unlikely, we could do the same with a new but different Timur which is also unlikely.
Yes, I agree, heroes for all or no one. Every civilization had people who had unique heroism and they didn’t only exist in the 3k, granted they were evil in some cases(Looking at you Genghis Khan).
I feel you get it wrong… There are many “Tamerlane” in the history, but only he was THAT Tamerlane. You can’t trick people on this point. Camels on fire is copiable, the historical figures is not. But a Kingdom can reasonably always have a lord after another died, so that’s why I said renaming would be a good and easy solution.
Since we almost can believe that having each civ own their hero is not going to happen, so the only direction is to get rid of the heroes of Three Kingdoms. Renaming them Lord make them less specific, and introducing new units to replace them can remove the historical figures and remain the auras at the same time.
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Sorry, I don’t understand your response. You’re saying the devs added heroes and made them underpowered because if they weren’t underpowered the devs would make other excuses for… something…? I don’t follow that, sorry.
I agree that flaming camels are a bad comparison. Sure, it’s a reference to a single battle, but the same strategy could and probably would have been used in other battles if the situation had arisen. In game, it’s a niche unit that is only really useful if such a situation occurs (i.e. it’s only really useful against elephants). It’s also very similar to the flaming pigs used by the Romans against elephants, and the general idea of countering war elephants by scaring them was not uncommon.
I think something like Corvinian Army or First Crusade would be a better comparison. I’m not keen on the level of specificity there either, but at least it only appears in a tech name, rather than appearing as a glowing super unit.
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People could use there imagination to believe it to be a different Tamerlane just as they could with the Flaming Camels being ones that weren’t used in the battle.
Tbh I think still calling it “purism” when its kind of just AoE2 jumping the shark is selling it short
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Yes sure, lets compare Flamimg camels which represent a version of an strategy that was used many times against elephants across history to one of the most relevant figures pf the middle ages. A second century Chinese warlords carrying two broadswords makes Mamelukes look like a unit pulled from a documentary
Look, if France could train “Louis” out of the castle it would still be dumb, even if way less ridiculous. Its just silly to bring “Great Men” as gamechanging figures to a battle in games built on abstraction. France shouldnt be the “Louis” civ, it should be able to be the “Charles” civ, the “Philippe” civ, the “Reinald” civ, the "Childeric " civ, the random peasabnt revolt civ
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Yes, its already too niche and even if you consider the very tiny percentage of games where its >45 mins and a hero is produced, he can stay only in 1 spot at a time while fights can happen in many spots at that stage of the game. Shu being an archer civ the hero healing the main group of arbalesters with UT could make sense but don’t think it does for the other 2.
Well I know that’s the reason you hate it. May not be the same reason for everyone. If its the history reason then obviously nothing much for me to explain. But I was trying to explain the situation if someone hates it because they believe its OP.
Make heroes unlocked after wonders. We don’t really need heroes in ranked games.
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That’s fair. I didn’t mean it in a disparaging way and would count myself as a purist here. I mostly like the additions and changes since The Conquerors, but some of the more recent features (especially auras, one time effect upgrades, and now heroes) make it feel to me like I’m playing a different game, rather than an expanded version of the same game.
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Begone apologist. I have no need of your lack of braincells
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