Like everyone else? Plus if you’re going down that road then Franks have it better since their castles are so much cheaper.
This tech is locked behind a castle while the Frank bonus is there since feudal, and seriously this tech is just bad. Even when it was glitched an would allow you to get pop from deleted house foundations it was still bad.
They aren’t faster but not having to pay for farm upgrades and always having FU farms will make your life so much easier when it comes to reseeding them, so it’s a pretty good wood bonus.
It comes in castle sure but it’s massive. The ability to both spam TCs and farms is a big deal for booming potential and make Britons waaay ahead Mongols in that age. Having to mine stone isn’t that big of a deal and less important than the ability to get more farms, otherwise Bulgarian would be a boom civ as well.
Why would Briton use their castle for in age 3? Normal longbows only have +1 attack when compared to xbows and a somewhat different cost, not something worth going out of your way to get, and Yeomen is so expensive it can’t be rushed. So castles aren’t really a priority for Brits.
What’s the point of making their eco bonus worse if at the same time you buff their go to unit? Wouldn’t it cancel out?
As said earlier: you can totally make a map where Franks are OP by covering it in berry bushes. Heck, a map covered in gold with barely enough food to go feudal would mean Sarracen and Turks are suddenly god-tier.
I am saying that even if a castle is destroyed the pop remains.
Sure, it is locked behind a castle but it is an eco bonus nonetheless and when is the situation that you are mongols but don’t want to drop a castle?
Horse collare is so fast researching and takes so low resources that basically in feudal it is a joke. In castle it is a pretty nice bonus for the knights, i am not denying this but then from castle on mongols power only increase even without particular bonuses while they still retain their hunting bonus.
you can make 3 more farms, lets not exaggerate here. And you still need the vills. If it not like farms automatically gather. It is more like the saving wood is made for them to make archery range and archers.
I didn’t understand what you mean by mine stoning as if you mine stone and the enemy doesn’t, he will be ahead in eco and units.
+1 attack isn’t something to throw off especially considering archers strength is in number and that +1 can become +30
The point is what i have written after that.
Again. Franks gathering berry bush is slower than handcart normal farmers. After a while you will catch them. Their bonus is perfectly fine in everymap.
You can’t say that without testing. Map full of gold means also the enemy can go very gold intensive units.
Ok let’s do the math. Nomad costs 300 wood and 150 gold. Just the wood cost is worth 12 houses. I can’t think of a way how a tech that isn’t even paid for itself after losing 12 houses (cuz there is still that gold cost) can hope to remotely compete with any actual eco bonus.
75 food saved = almost 1 free scout
75 wood saved = 3 free houses right away
For a scout rush it definitely matters.
I’m not exagerating. Don’t you see how potent 3 more farms for each TC can be for a boom?
Bulgarians have the Briton bonus but for the stone cost. And their boom is nowhere near as strong as the Briton one, which shows how wood is more important than stone in castle age.
So you better have 1 castle slowly trickling a +1 attack unit while you play the civ that has faster working archery ranges. Just no.
Well faster hunting is always going to be desirable on hunt maps. So sure, these scouts will be out slower than before but they will be stronger too, so it does cancels out.
Same for Mongols.
So I said: barely enough food to go feudal. So basically once you’re in feudal Turks and Sarracen would be able to market abuse to compensate for food scarcity while other civs would have to rely on farming only. And seriously why would Sarracen and Turks care about enemy gold units? They have their own too.
Hmm, you are taking it from the wrong perspective. For example think when the enemy is pushing and he destroys your houses, suddendly you are housed meaning no more military units and you have to allocate a working villager to make a house (micro demand, working villagers no more working, reputting the villagers on work afterwards). This situation won’t happen if you tech that. The no more military units means enemy will be able to push you harder.
Yeah that is almost though. You won’t build 3 house immediately anyway on feudal. You gradualy build house.
Well not immediately. Farms take some time to be gathered and, as i wrote, they still need villagers.
Saving 100 stone is certainly worse than saving 275 wood. But they have their use for kreposts.
It is not slowly as it is the fastest unit that can be trained on a castle not counting shotel. And longbow are like mangudai. They are good in castle but they also scale so well for imperial.
That is the point.
No it is not same for the mongols as i don’t think 34.4 F/m is the same as 24.3.
Turks vs Mayans, mayans win with only el dorado spam. Just because they can spam gold unit, doesn’t mean other civs don’t have better gold costing unit.
You’re actually talking about a paid tech that hypothetically saves you from rebuilding 25 wood buildings after they’re destroyed. Not only you got the effect of the tech wrong, now you’re selling it as if it’s an eco bonus
This argument is nonsensical and running in circles, 11. RotE has lost track of his main point and is now arguing about Nomad (tech, not map) for Kotyan knows why, and no-one is talking about the Indians anymore because we’re talking about Mongol castles?
Anyway, jokes aside, my thoughts.
In a vacuum, RotE is clearly thinking logically about these bonuses. Mongols is far stronger than Indians because the collection rate is way better, they carry more, and they can use it on every map. Indians can’t do any of that, and it’s also much slower. And then they nerf it further.
Look at it from that perspective. It makes sense.
The issue is, we’re not looking in a vacuum. That’s Mongols only true eco bonus. They get the 600-800 Boar food (memory isn’t that clear tonight) faster, but they don’t get MORE food. It’s a Dark Age only bonus. Indians eco is already stronger. It scales in strength through the game, and although they can’t do 16 pop scouts, their 21 pop eco is already stronger.
The fishing bonus is their SECOND bonus. They still have the best fishing in the game, so on maps with lakes they’re better than most other civs (unless there’s hunt, in which case it’s near even I’d say due to the villager savings). Once you’re out of Dark Age, Indian economy is so, so strong. Especially for a Castle Age boom.
not sure about those civs. but i wish turks have more access to trash unit, even if their stats aren’t good. like at least pikemen but with weaker stats and elite skirms etc.
we’ve talked extensively about how to buff turks in various threads. the point i was making though, is that yeah, mongols get a big hunting bonus (40%). but that bonus is usually dead by about the 10 minute mark.
bonuses to lumberjacking, farming, and gold mining? those keep going long into the game.
how many maps that fit that description are out there?
in the upcoming map pool we have 1.
how many maps are there where you can lumberjack/gold mine/farm until the end of the game? all of them.
guess we better nerf celts, slavs, and turks too!
I like how you go off topic and try to put words in my mouth. never once did I mention about nerfing other civ. I mentioned mongols nerfing and thats what I will be talking about. I can’t help with your bad habit of trying to use another point to argue my current point, but I’ll leave your weakness at that.
maybe 2 maps out of them will benefit mongols but that is irrelevant. when those maps are played, the advantage is massive. a nerf is definitely needed in place.
tho I do love to abuse it when I get maps like blackforest, lots of players and a small map with all the boar gather in 1 place. feels like free food cheat
no, i’m merely putting it into perspective. the mongol hunt bonus is high because it has a relatively short shelf life, and usually involves no more then 8 villagers (for boars) at maximum involved in it at one time.
on the other hand we have several civs that get long term bonus that involve dozens of villagers at one time.
let me put it another way. who do you think gets a bigger impact? mongols getting 40% faster hunt for the first 10 minutes…
or slav farmers getting 10% faster farming for the duration of a game?
or celt lumberjacks who get 15% faster wood cutting for the duration of the game?
in the short term the mongol player will be ahead, but after that his eco bonus is gone and he doesn’t receive any more benefit.
basically my point is the mongols get a short term benefit, but it falls short of what other civs get.
and that’s why it was nerfed from 50% to 40% already.
there are also very long term bonuses like hun’s discount on spie, why not bring that up? because it doesn’t fit your agenda does it?
of the other civ bonus down the line, mongol’s bonus is a massive one at beginning and good players can take full advantage of that and advantages piles up quickly. which is why there are civs with bonuses that started in dark age turned into bonus spread into multiple ages.
if a map is played that mongol can take advantage of, then the advantage is way too big. its to the point of mongols being a map specific civ instead of being mongols.
no, i don’t have an agenda, i’m just pointing out that despite how strong the mongol hunt bonus seems, its got a short shelf life, falls short of other civs eco bonuses, and frankly… https://aoestats.io/civ/Mongols/RM_1v1/1650+
mongols aren’t exactly wrecking people right now.
yeah, they can take advantage of it, but only for so long. once that extra food is gone, they have zero eco bonus to fall back on, and other civs can pull even and then ahead.
too bad the stats doesn’t mention the maps. so my point still stand, though a better way would be to find things to nerf on animal maps while buff on non animal maps.
it does, at the bottom.
Mongols have a >50% winrate on 3 maps. Islands, Golden Swamp, and Arena.
they have a <50% winrate on Arabia, Serengetti, 4 Lakes, Mega Random, Hill Forts, and Nomad (ironic).