its not in the map pool for rated 1 vs 1 games.
black forest is considered a “noob friendly” map, and as far as i can recall, i’ve never seen it used in a tournament.
you can play them in the unranked matches.
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Read what i wrote. I made wording mistake but not conceptual mistake. Just instead of build should have written refresh houses. I surely don’t know some techs instantly but of the mongols i know solely because i also complained about mangudai and their drill siege.
Mongols arent exactly overpowered right now, why do thry need nerfs?
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The villager save allows them to tech into some massive food costing uu but the mongols as a civ don’t need this. Elephant archers needs a lot of upgrade and this translates into a need of lot of food and wood and also gold. You are right that indians have better boom but while the indian is slowly building forces, mongols start their powerspike on castle age and becomes almost unstoppable in imperial. If you give them eco booming bonus, they will literally become unstoppable. They can, for example, go for fully upgraded light cav with 30% more hp raids already in castle which allows them to build their mangudai force costing only wood and gold which they can use to raid effectively.
Preferibly you should always go on shorefish as it is faster than hunting for every civ.
My solution also isn’t to nerf them as the indians. Their gather rate should slight be nerfed but for early raids they could get an compensation like 15% hp on scouts as their civ is still a raiding civ.
Seems they lose badly vs britons (halbs +longbow i think) to which i propose nerf for britons, lith to which i prose another nerf as their relic and letis are too good ( also i think they lose because lith have faster skirms which means mangudai are very at disadvantage) and that the overpowered cavs can take any siege, against tatars because as i already noted, their cav archer actually beats mangudai which isn’t the strongest cav Archer in game anymore and on the top of that any hill situation makes them overpowered even against anti cav archer unit, and vs chinese that have chukunu that apparently beats anything. I haven’t thought about an nerf for chinese as i don’t play them often as their start is akward. I have played one game where i could hold on against 2 forces but a massive swarm of paladins razed my buildings and a massive numbers of aztec eagles destroged my eco. GG
Britons and Lithuanians literally have balanced winrates.
Why would they need nerfs?
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Because as you published they win hard vs some civs. You can’t have a civ with 20% win rate vs some civs if you truly want balance.
Goths win hard vs mayans. Should we nerf them?
Goths lose hard vs vikings, japs, and Aztecs, should we nerf them?
Do you see where this is going?
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According to your own site of stats, goths have 44% win rate vs teutons and that is their lowest. Did you just invent nonesense to support yourself?
It still costs 300 wood and 150 gold, that’s roughly the cost of 3 mangudai. You think its researched seriously as a legitimate advantage? It was given to them as a placeholder tech without giving them a serious buff while fitting the nomad theme
The powerspike is in early feudal age not castle age. Standard hunt expires in dark age and for Mongols it allows them to age up with 1-2 vills less and have scouts (their best strat) out faster before opponent walls up, that is the power spike. Unless it is a map with lot of hunt like Yucatan or valley, then it has a big long term effect.
where did i say anything about goths vs Teutons? but then again, yeah, according to your logic we need to nerf Teutons too.
You mentioned they lose hard. I told you the lowest win rate civ they have against.
I think 20-30% are different than 45% but apparently not the case.
Well then their power only increases from feudal if you have to put it as that way. Also, in feudal they have this strat but the fact that they don’t need to recover from it and proceed normally to castle age means the hunt bonus is affecting too much.
yeah. at all skill levels. you know what all skill levels includes? low level players who literally wait until imp to attack. IE when goths are at their best.
IMO, Elephant archers aren’t used at all because they’re too expensive - even for Indians, so the bonus doesn’t really affect the Elephant Archer. They also have some of the best Camels in the game - even though Mangudai match them in speed - but that is one of the best counters to the Mongol army. If you get to Imperial Camel, that’s huge. They can boom much better - by the time you train up to 80 villagers, you’ve saved 500 food in Castle Age alone. That’s a lot of units. That’s a power spike. You can also tech to Camels far faster than they get Mangudai up - if you rush them with Camels, they can’t really build Mangudai numbers effectively. So, Mongols rely on the feudal/dark age power spike to get a good scout rush or other attack to delay you.
There was actually a fantastic Indians/Mongols war on Slopes in HC3. There is a lot of hunt, but also a lot of shorefish. Gives them equal opportunity to work, so a great testing ground for Mongols/Indians bonuses. Vinchester (Mongols) and Fedex (Indians). Indians had a strong lead for a while. Fedex threw the game by wasting ALL his trebs, but it was an Indians game the majority of the match.
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most pros rarely use elephant unique units period, so that is par for the course.
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It definitely was more of a shorefish map tbh, the fishing vills could easily be walled while the deer vills were far from home and exposed to scouts with no practical way to protect them other than troops of your own
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I can’t disagree. It’s still probably the best real-world matchup of the two bonuses that we have at the moment, though. A professional tournament, a map with equal levels of hunt and shorefish, and Indians/Mongols war. It just shows that the Mongol bonus is pretty balanced, as is the Indians bonus.
I don’t really think they need tweaking. If anything, Indians was a tad over-nerfed, but it’s still okay and Mongols are fine.
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OMG No. Seriously, what do Mongols have in the mid game? Pros say that Mongols aren’t a top tier civ. You have faster Feudal thanks to the hunting bonus. After the Scouts you have nothing till Mangudais.
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Eco bonus Mongols:
- Faster hunters
Eco bonus Indians:
- Cheaper villagers (from dark age)
- Fishermen work faster
- Unique tech for more gold income
- Two man saw
Mongols have the benefit of a kick start. Early game they will get some fast food. That is all they get. So you can do some really early feudal stuff, but that is all they get.
Indians on the other hand already use less food in dark age because cheaper vills. If there is fish on the map, so they also can have some early boost. The cheaper vills means also a bigger boom or just castle aggression next to a normal boom. If Indians build a castle, they can also get an unique tech to get more gold. And Indians have the two man saw tech in imperial age, Mongols dont have this tech.
In the end i dont think we can see the Mongol bonus is better. Yes, there are maps with extremely many hunt. This kind of maps are pretty scare. I dont really think we need to balance the civs around scare techs.
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Most people do not value how good Indians eco is in the game, thanks to progressively cheaper Villagers.
It is one of the strongest Economic Bonii in the game.
It means you can farm boom in the Castle Age far cheaper than any other civ, even Teutons, while still affording expensive Food cost techs and units, which is exactly why they do not have Knights or Battle Elephants.
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