Idea for the Gurjara eco

I just got the idea… yeah, what about making gurjaras full veggie?
I mean they are already kinda close to that but not fully there yet.

Some of you may internally already complain about “what about the hunt” - but I think I got a creative Idea for that.

They can be played non-veggie mode also, it’s not an exclusive thing. But they become viable to play veggie then.

First to make Gurjaras full Veggie and competitive they need to gather Berries faster. They also need more Berries cause otherwise they don’t get enough food in.
So they get the Forager bonus from the franks. This should be enough to give them a competitive feudal timing. Then they get 6 berry bushes under their TC. I know that’s a lot of berries, but that’s the compensation for not eating any meat in dark age.
Franks could get any other bonus as compensation. In my opinion Chivalry could be changed to giving Cavalry 10 % more HP. Making their Paladins undoubtedly the best in the game in the exchange for the loss of the Berry bonus.

So what happens with the Gurjara Hunt? Well, as Gurjaras are so dependent on Gold, I thought that their Hunters could actually collect Gold instead of Food. (by selling the valueable body Parts of the Hunted anymals). This way you can and maybe even should bring in your Hunt to collect the Gold from it and you get a nice feudal boost by collecting faster with your Hunters. (Potentially they could even get 1.2 x Gold from the hunt to make it more revarding to go to hunt in feudal)

Lastly cause of the TG shenenigans we saw with the gurjara Sheep bonus I think it should be nerfed a bit in the early game. I would think that 2 F / min per Sheep in Dark age is enough and for each age they get + 1 F / min, up to 5 F / min / Sheep in Imp. So if they don’t eat the sheep in Feudal they get a nice,with your age increasing extra food income. In Imp it’s then equivalent to almost 2 Farmers. I think it could also be debated if the increase in Castle and Imp could be even higher.

With this change the incredible gurjara builds we currently have wouldn’t be viable anymore. But I honestly think they are a bit too strong tbh. This about 500-600 extra food they can get until they click up to castle age.is almost the same that tatars had with their sheep bonus which was nerfed for a reason some time ago. Don’t get me wrong, I like the special builds that are viable with Gurjaras I just think in the aftermath it’s too much extra food, it’s in that range where it becomes unfair against some opponents which have to add farms way earlier. I know that it only comes into play if gurjaras push in their deer which makes it kinda punishing but I still think this shouldn’t be a thing. It’s just too much extra Food.

I think such an idea is needlessy convoluted, and nit necessarily in the spirit of aoe2.
also franks dont need buffs to their paladins.

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Gurjara eco is fine as it is, no need for any nerfs or such a big overhaul.
Because some pro player can abuse something we don’t have to nerf a civ for the 99,9% of the remaining users that can’t replicate the same, I’m totally against that useless and really detrimental practice.

…Why? Why lead civ balance with a vegan fetish that you put ahead of all other considerations?

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I’m pretty sure all Gurjaras nerf proposals come from the fact they appear as first or second on various ranked ladder stat charts which isn’t a criteria I like either for civ balance

Liferally have various civs eating pork which would be against their religion (and no one really complains) but lets make a vegan civ…

Why do we play games?

For personal amusement, clearly, but one individual’s amusement is no reason to change the game for everybody. I say this frequently, but there are ideas that are good/fine in limited circumstances (e.g. a mod or scenario) that become bad when someone wants to apply them to the whole game.

For fun.
And it’s also “why” I thought out this Idea.

But yeah let’s make it a politicom. Ofc I’m a control freak that wants everybody to play the game only like I want them to…

You could also ask why people in this forum take everything so serious. And turn everything into completely unnecessary personal feuds with immediately alleging some cruel intentions. Maybe that’s the better question.

Well, before Gurjaras other civs were the #1/#2 in the charts, and they weren’t nerfed in like…uhmm 20 years?
So why should we rush for nerfs now?

To escape the misery of the offline world. Why else?

This is really, really bad advise. You try to delay things that you have to face nevertheless and the longer you delay it it will only become worse.

It was just dark humor, come on.

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Few reasons. First, if everyone has their own version of how they want the game to be, the agenda of others becomes a threat which then needs to be attacked, to prevent the non existant risk the devs will listen to someone else’s ideas. Second, I think that a lot of people have developed grudges, or even hatred towards others on the forum, and will always try and shoot certain people down regardless (me with AllergicTable49 is a good example of this). Those are the biggest reasons I can think of.

3 Likes

That’s literally what people are proposing when they ask for civ reworks like this (and don’t make explicitly clear that it is purely hypothetical). That’s why most civ rebalance threads, and even new civ idea threads, tend to be judged more critically than not.

I make nothing personal and have no personal feuds with anyone. The problem is when people tie in their identity with their ideas, such that they perceive negative reception of their ideas as a personal attack on them, which it is (usually) not.

To be sure, most ideas, good and bad, will not come under consideration of the devs, so there is no reason to be antagonistic towards “bad” ideas for the sake of mitigating such a “threat.” On the other hand, posting something on a public forum should come with the expectation of honest feedback from others, even if it is negative. All products intended for public consumption follow this principle.

Uh guys I think it kinda escalated too fast. Like it’s not the first time someone wonders whether you can play vegan, or maybe he read something about vegetarianism in India, idk.

Very amazing idea for some low elo legend games and campaigns but terrible for competitive play. With no hunt, Gurjaras will never hit feudal age. Food is orders of magnitude more important than gold till late castle age.

Your post keeps getting worse. You probably watched Battle of Africa 3 African Springs games and assumed this. You see in that map, players get shore fish and hence can donate their sheep to Gurjara ally without hurting their eco. The map has now been nerfed to 4 sheep per player. In standard maps you’ll be slowed down if you donate your herdables to your ally.
Right now at 3.5f/min/sheep, they’re able to get competitive up times, open xbows or skirms get the food eco setup and go for their food intense units. If its nerfed to 2 f/min they’ll be super slow compared to dozens of other civs That’s terrible for a civ with no late game units.

wow you can take AoE4 ideas to AoE2.

Next thread, give Franks early Knights, just like Gurjaras have early Camels :clown_face:

No disrespect but… AoE2 is a good game precisely because some ideas are NOT taken from AoE4.

The way they did boar and the food mechanic as a whole in AoE4 is horrendous.

To be honest, at least in my opinion, it goes beyond this. They just did AoE4 horrendous as a whole, not just some mechanics, most of the game.

yeah true, other stuff is bad too, including the concept of ‘tech switching’ being non-existent, which basically turns the game into a big whack-a-mole, “see knight, make spear”, “oh now see archer, make horsemen” type of thing. Extremely boring to see games in late Imp go on for 30+ min because Knights turn around trying to dodge spears and after all Knights are depleted it’s Hand Cannoneers vs Archers time.

The game has a lot of flaws including siege being too strong, civs not feeling different enough, but one big downside for me is how you can nearly indefinitely sustain your eco through extra food sources like Berries, hunt etc.

Also the notion of “gold units” and “counter units” in AoE2 is done very nicely, gold units are pop-efficient while counter units are cost-efficient. Double gold comp is always a possibility and beats… basically everything so you need to be mindful of that but overall it’s nice to have some units you care about and some you just send away randomly.

It’s ok.

I mean this wasn’t a “serious” proposal anyways (like… actually most of my ideas aren’t like meant serious)
I’m just a creative person.

And btw just fyi there is currently this really weird stigma about “creativity” like if it was “skill” or whatever. Which leads to a few creative people who just had the righ ideas at the right time being admired but nobody wants to have anything to do with the “crazy” other creatives which ideas just don’t “fit in”.
But it’s just pure luck if a creative Idea is fitting or not.
And by only admiring the few that had the good ideas and call them “genius” or whatever you ignore the uncomfortable truth about creativity: It’s just randomness wired in creative peoples minds. And they have to be creative otherwise they wither. And they have to share their ideas otherwise they can’t be classified as “fitting” or “not fitting”.
That’s how creativity works.

And btw already the classification of creative ideas in “good” or “bad” is actually weird. Cause it suggests as if creativity was something you could steer and become “better” in. That’s not how creativity works. It’s just random stuff that comes to mind unconsciously. It’s not controllable. And if it was, it wouldn’t be creative.

About 1-2 % of creative people can make a living out of it, For at least 2/3 of creative people their creativity is actually a burden in their life cause it only consumes time and they get alomst exclusively negative feedback. That’s the truth about creativity.


But yeah I balanced it and if you would put it like this in the game, Gurjaras would be in a decent spot. Cause I like to play with balance. Just for example:

I added enough berries that you can get to feudal no problem.

You know there is this crazy building called “market”, where you can sell Gold for Food? I chose this very wisely with the food to gold for the hunt cause it would eg mean that you can make a good FC still , but you couldn’t boost your feudal uptime anymore.
The problem with current gurjaras eco is that it has really good timings (maybe not as good as mongols or lith) paired with a really strong eco, comparable to mayans. So the Idea I bring up here is to basically remove the timing advantage but they keep the good eco.

In most standard maps I eat about 4-5 of my sheep in dark age. I usually have then 3-4 which I could give to the gurjara player. It would only need me to place like 2 more early farms to compensate for that. It’s not a big deal really and a huge boost to the gurjara eco.
But it’s actually also bec of the dark => feudal eco. having more than 1 vill advantage is really huge at this stage (look at you, chinese!). And in feudal they have the hunt to boost their economy additionally (even if it needs a market to convert it to food).It would be different if you couldn’t ungarrison the sheep from your mill, but you can and that means it comes with basically no tradeoff. Because you can just eat the sheep whenever you need. Which is huge for such a strong eco bonus. Chinese bonus for example is kinda hard to execute for most unexperienced players.
I chose the increasing food income because I want to make “eating the sheep in feudal” a real tradeoff and if I would make it more than the current 3.5 F / min in dark to feudal then gurjaras would become so OP it wouldn’t even be funny. Cause currently eating the sheep in feudal to get a better castle timing is already kind of OP, as it boosts your timing by about 1 1/2 minutes. Which means Gurjaras can hit better timings than Malay with better eco behind it.

Which ofc makes their archer play insane as you already admitted. I mean how many civs without arbs play so much archer openings as gurjaras? ^^ Even besides it’s currently more, gurjaras are kind of outstanding in this regard.

Yes I watched those, but it’s about lots of sheep in General. You know there are maps like Ghost Lake or African Clearing? Currently they would give Gurjaras that insane boost in 1v1s as Gurjaras show in these Team Games already. By reducing the Dark Age Food income I actually make “adding more mills early” for Gurjaras more a tradeoff. It delays their Feudal timing if they do this, which is exactly what it should be like if they are greedy with that bonus. This kind of Bonus needs a tradeoff otherwise it can become OP very fast. (Think about it currently the mill filled with 8 sheep gets you more food/investment than farms, you don’t need vills on them to collect it and the income is limitless. No wonder it’s so OP if you have more than 1 mill)

Have you read what I wrote? Onöy because I don’t write “this is purely hypothetical” explicitely you assume it isn’t? There is text and there is subtext and if you read just the first 2 lines of it you should know that it’s a hypothetical concept just made for curiosity.

Maybe you not, but others. But I want to tell you the question “why” is just stupid. It hinders you from having fun completely. Everything livingworhy in life doesn’t makes any sense. Why do we have ■■■? “TO MAKE CHILDREN”. Really? That’s why we have ■■■?
Why is a stupid question that makes everything that is just for fun seem “worthless” and need to be justified somehow. By asking this question all the time you are basically guaranteed to lose everything that makes you happy. Cause it makes no sense.

Well I don’t play AOE4. But as far as I know you only get that bounty gold, you still collect food.
The idea with “Hunt brings in Gold instead of Food” is because of the insane feudal timings with absurd food eco that would be possible with 6 extra berries and the sheep in mills that can be ungarrisoned. Also cause yeah You need to do something with the hunt and if Gurjaras play veggie it can’t be food. Having a civ competitive without using hunt at all is also no solution cause it would (rightfully) upset players in low to mid elo which often still struggle a bit with hunt but at least try to use it. And it would feel unfair if paired with an opposing civ that doesn’t care about hunt at all.
So that’s the reason for the hunt food => gold. It’s just “how this would be possible”. I know that it sounds ridiculous. But it never had the claim to be serious so… why the ado?

It’s pretty clear that this concept will never make it to the core Game. Just because adding 6 bushes in the beginning and that gold from hunt is so exceptional that Devs won’t touch it. Cause it would be too unique and confusing for casuals. But is it wrong to think about “how to make a veggie civ balanced”?


But back again to the creativity discussion…
What about adding a “creative corner” in the forum where creative people can just post their ideas? Nobody is forced to ever touch that if he has problems with understanding how creativity actually works. And only wants to see the 1 % “good” ideas already filtered and cleaned up.