Idea to nerf quick walling

[Chekardhar]

@SouMexican

Negative armor to unfinished walls is the answer.

what about houses???

[PainQuai9033310]

Do you think that the majority of the player base cares about quickwalling?

[Chekardhar]

i dont want to argue that much
i kind of agree with you
but anytime someone busts a quickwall all the excitement is higher

[thieftdp8498]

I like the idea of nerfing it. I’d actually just love to see palisade wall/gate only 1/4 of hp with lower armor, and stone wall with same hp/armor takes 3x longer to build so can still be killed while building it since hp going up is relative to build speed.

I’d still like to see quick wall but with much shorter pause maybe just 0.5 to 1 sec.

[Penelinfi]

How about “slow” terrain; units can traverse through partially completed foundation slowly up to 50% (can change this value to a suitable one, maybe more for palisades, less for houses or stone walls etc), upon which they then get pushed to the side they were closer to if the HP goes above that.

Or maybe just allow them to enter the foundation up to 50%, then they can leave it, but cannot enter a foundation over 50% (still moves slower through it on <50%).
Also to consider the villager stops building if units enter the foundation so you don’t need to consider the above ;p

Foundations can still be directly attacked at any %.

I guess you’d then see the possibility of “slow traps”, but that would be more costly, and units can still bust down the foundation.

I wonder if this would be applied to all buildings or just certain ones like walls/gates/houses.

imo would be nicer than a wait time as lag is infuriating XD

[TougherTrack508]

@Penelinfi

Or maybe just allow them to enter the foundation up to 50%, then they can leave it, but cannot enter a foundation over 50%

I’d never considered this possibility of just not caring if a military unit and building happen to be in the same place after a building is constructed. It does have a certain elegance.

If the cutoff for blocking unit was at a certain number of villager-seconds you could nerf quick-walling without effecting castle drops too much. OTOH some people want to nerf castle drops…

[HestiaAoE]

@PainQuai9033310

I would opt for the wait to be applied only on the first tile of a line

OK I didn’t see this earlier.

@PainQuai9033310

Quickwalling indeed comes at a cost, but a cost I believe is too low. Say you want to save a villager, by building 4 palisades around him. The price would be less than:
8 units of wood + 0.5* (seconds needed to quickwall) units of any resource.
(0.5 is the maximum unit/second gathering rate in the game)

As I said the price of quickwalling is not resources, but APM. It seems you are primarily talking about a single villager building 4 palisades. This is a very easy-to-fail task, especially for the first 2 palisades. You need to move the villager paying attention to the grids. How many players in the world could consistently do this well? I can only think of Viper, Hera, Liereyy and TaToH. So basically you are trying to nerf the top pros.

[phoenix1089]

@Penelinfi

Or maybe just allow them to enter the foundation up to 50%, then they can leave it, but cannot enter a foundation over 50%

I think this is one of the best ideas so far. Either this or negative armour to all foundations.

BUT like a number of other things people have contested, i think it has existed too long in the game for veterans to want to change it. Regardless of how irrational it is. Foundation scouting is literally a bug in other games but those same veterans oppose it’s removal from AOE.

So imo its highly unlikely quick walling will be nerfed , but we might hopefully see foundation nerfs at some point.

Just be aware it changes a lot of tactics (implications for trush and castle drops etc) if either of those above two changes happen

I would love to be able to melee attack vils through their own castle foundation while they attempt a castle drop. Imo it would heavily nerf that cheese

[ArshiaAghaei]

@PainQuai9033310

If you re too bored to address the other points of my post, you might as well not answer.

I call this kind of replies offensive.
Because you are “deciding” whether or not should I write replies to you.

This aside, all of your points come from the fact that quick walling annoys you while the very simple solution to quick walling is a single archer unit. Also you can place any type of building (like a house) foundation to stop any quick walling.

@PainQuai9033310

My objective is not to remove it, but to nerf it!

People who struggle with a unit/strat usually want to nerf it. Nothing new here,

@PainQuai9033310

I am not sure as I am not programming the game, but I am pretty sure it would not be something drastic.

That’s where you are wrong. Even one second can mean enemy scouts in your lumber camp

@SouMexican

it shouldn’t be a thing.

Let’s decrease the creativity of players because we find something annoying.
Nice!

@PainQuai9033310

Do you think that the majority of the player base cares about quickwallin

Pros do, and they decide balance and they should
Also, quick walling has proven to be very effective against an offense, so it doesn’t mean if you don’t like it, others don’t care about it

[PainQuai9033310]

If you are offended by my answer, imagine how offensive it is to totally dismiss an argument without referencing ANY of the arguments made.
My answer was definitely provocative, but far from offensive. I was not deciding whether or not you should reply to me, I was just saying your post brought nothing new to the conversation.

Concerning your last post, I think the most relevant sentence is “even one second can mean enemy scouts in your lumber camp”. I agree 100% and it is indeed this my point.
If you know where your enemy’s army is (which is something that pros always aim to do anyways), you definitely have more than one second to wall when he is coming to attack you, and the nerf won’t affect you.
On the other hand, if you have no clue where the enemy’s army is (WHICH IS YOUR FAULT) and you just see it appearing on your woodline and have just a second to react, in my opinion you should pay for your mistake.

The other post of mine which you quote was an answer to another post. If you saw that I think you would have avoided writing that last part.

[thieftdp8498]

imo quick wall with actual palisade or stone wall/gates has much less risk than a building. typically building say house or barrack build time is longer, lower armor and when destroyed they often free up 2 space not just 1 like a wall.

[ArshiaAghaei]

@PainQuai9033310

If you are offended by my answer

If I were offended, I would flag your response, which I didn’t.

@PainQuai9033310

in my opinion you should pay for your mistake.

You still need to react quickly when you make that mistake.
Otherwise, you’d be dead in seconds.

@PainQuai9033310

I was just saying your post brought nothing new to the conversation.

Yes I did, and ironically, you didn’t respond to my other points here either.
My point was if something in the game is not realistic, it doesn’t matter
24/7 vills aren’t realistic either, but if they get nerfed they aren’t gonna be to your benefit. That’s why you don’t want them nerfed.

@PainQuai9033310

If you know where your enemy’s army is (which is something that pros always aim to do anyways), you definitely have more than one second to wall when he is coming to attack you, and the nerf won’t affect you.

You could always be caught off guard in a TG.

@PilgrimHYR

OK I didn’t see this earlier.

That can be applied to a quick gate and it will ruin that entirely

@PainQuai9033310

The other post of mine which you quote was an answer to another post. If you saw that I think you would have avoided writing that last part.

Still doesn’t answer the first part

Let me make the whole thing simple for you:
In a TG, one usually goes for cav or man at arms rush and the other goes for archer. So you attack someone’s base with a melee unit and if they try to quick wall, your teammate will deny that with archers.

With your logic, quick wall will no longer be that effective against a melee attack and you won’t need much archers to support it.

Do you realize how much that ruins a game?

[HestiaAoE]

@PainQuai9033310

On the other hand, if you have no clue where the enemy’s army is (WHICH IS YOUR FAULT) and you just see it appearing on your woodline and have just a second to react, in my opinion you should pay for your mistake.

I recalled this:

GRAND FINALS | Red Bull Wololo II

Hera had perfect clue where Liereyy’s knights are, and reacted instantly. But still it is a narrow escape. Imagine what a disaster it will be if there’s a 1sec pause. (Whether this case falls into your category of “pause only applied to first palisade” depends on the implementation, another complexity.)

To me such thing is the art of defense. It requires you to be highly skilled and yet you still pay a big price every time you do it.

[HestiaAoE]

@ArshiaAghaei

You still need to react quickly when you make that mistake.
Otherwise, you’d be dead in seconds.

This aligns with my point. OP seems to overestimate people’s reaction speed.

[ArshiaAghaei]

@PilgrimHYR

OP seems to overestimate people’s reaction speed.

Exactly, I managed to do a decent quickwall only once in my games.

Others were either sloppy or had holes

[PainQuai9033310]

This is a great video, great example and thank you for bringing it up.
I guess people like you argue that the (intense) micro ability for Hera is a good enough justification to not lose any of the vills, while my stance is that Liereyyy deserved to do more damage, independently of the speed of Hera, as he did not have army to defend the attack and the villagers were unprotected.
Although I can see where you are coming from, I wanted to ask you the following questions.

• Isn’t it still ridiculous that 8 knights cannot do any damage to those completely unprotected villagers?
• How would have players played this some years ago? Probably, knowing that his woodline was exposed and that Liereyyy had better army, Hera would have walled the villagers in preventively some time before.

I do not want to hide the fact that I prefer players that think ahead rather than players that just adapt last second, and this might make me biased in this discussion.
I do not want to take speed out of the game but if two incredibly opposite scenarios can turn out for a last second decision, most of the times I would think it is unfair.
Last thing: most likely in the following years, we would be able to have AIs that will be much stronger than Viper or Hera. Would you like them to be good just because they can react super quickly to everything (hence winning every micro battle, quickwalling like gods etc…) or because they actually take good decisions?

[ArshiaAghaei]

@PainQuai9033310

Would you like them to be good just because they can react super quickly to everything (hence winning every micro battle, quickwalling like gods etc…) or because they actually take good decisions?

If I’m gonna choose a higher difficulty, I’m gonna choose it for challenge.

@PainQuai9033310

Isn’t it still ridiculous that 8 knights cannot do any damage to those completely unprotected villagers?

No, because it’s Hera
If it was you and me, it would be different

@PainQuai9033310

Hera would have walled the villagers in preventively some time before.

If he doesn’t feel danger, he isn’t gonna sacrifice APM for nothing

[PainQuai9033310]

I don’t want to keep arguing about the first of your posts. I never argued “unrealistic = bad”, so let’s just not waste both of our times about that.

With your logic, quick wall will no longer be that effective against a melee attack and you won’t need much archers to support it.

Hm, I said it would be still as effective if you scout it and you just start quickwalling 2 seconds before.
Drushes and maa would still be able to be stopped very effectively in that case.
Moreover, I honestly don’t see why you say that you will not need archers in the TG example. For example, if the enemy is walled, how would the melee units avoid the villagers to build behind the walls?

[ArshiaAghaei]

@PainQuai9033310

For example, if the enemy is walled, how would the melee units avoid the villagers to build behind the walls?

We are talking about quick walling, not already walled places.

@PainQuai9033310

I said it would be still as effective if you scout it and you just start quickwalling 2 seconds before.

If you actually read what I said, I wrote that in TG you can’t be fully aware

[PainQuai9033310]

We are talking about quick walling, not already walled places.

Ok, then in that case archers would still be useful, maybe a little less essential, but you would not see someone not going archers just because of a quickwall nerf. Note that it would still be possible to “quick wall” out melee units, but with more conservative walls and giving more space to the opponent ( = more time for you to wall)

If you actually read what I said, I wrote that in TG you can’t be fully aware

I do not think you wrote that. The closest thing to it you said is:

You could always be caught off guard in a TG.

And even in that case, you start off with a scout and can communicate with your teammates. So you do have the ability to track the other teams moves, and I do not see how much harder it would be compared to single player.
Lastly, of course in any situation you cannot ever be “fully aware”. What you can do is try to get as close to it as you can.