Ideas for Balance changes in 2024

General:

Battle Elephant (standard and elite) trample damage increased form 25% to 33%.
Eagle warrior upgrade cost increased from 200f 200g to 275f 250g, upgrade time increased from 50 seconds to 65 seconds.
Elite Eagle Warrior upgrade cost increased from #### 500g to 1000f 700g, upgrade time increased from 50 seconds to 70 seconds.
Elite Steppe Lancer ugrade food cost decreased from 900f to 700f, gold cost remains the same.
Fortified Church also provides +10 population space, cost adjusted from 200 wood to 175 wood, 25 stone.
Heavy Scorpion range increased from 7 to 8.
Militia-Line speed increased from 0.9 to 0.95.

Armenians:
(Elite) Composite Bowman Pierce Armor increased from 0 to 1
Receive access to Siege ram
Lose access to Shipwright.
Galleys and Dromons extra projectile bonus removed.
Cilician Fleet: Galleys and Dromons get one extra Projectile and +1 range, Blast radius remaons unchanged.
New Bonus: Monks cost -20%.

Aztecs:
Garland Wars cost changed from 450f 750f to 750f 450g.
Jaguar Warrior speed increased from 1.0 to 1.1.
Monastery technologies give +3 HP in Castle age, +5 HP restored in Imperial Age.

Bengalis:
Monk armor bonus staggered to +2/+2 in castle age, and improved to +4/+4 in Imperial Age.
Paiks no longer affects Elephant Archers.
Receive access to Knight

Berbers:
Receive access to Shipwright.

Byzantines:
Elite Cataphract training time reduced from 20 seconds to 17 seconds.

Bohemians:
Lose access to Siege Engineers.
Elite Hussite Wagon range increased to 7.

Bulgarians:
(Elite) ####### ###### ROF decreased from 2.4 to 2.2

Burgundians:
Coustilier food cost increased from 55f to 65f, gold cost remain the same.
Burgundian Vineyards cost reduced from 400f 300g to 250f 250g.

Celts:
Strongholds also give Town Centers 33% firing rate.

Cumans:
Kipchak (standard and elite) training time increased from 20 seconds to 25 seconds.
Steppe Husbandry properly affects Kipchaks and Genitours.
Elite Kipchak firing rate decreased from 2.2 to 2.0.

Dravidians:
New bonus: Town Centers deal +1/+2/+3 damage to cavalry in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
Fishing ships and Fishermen carry cap bonus changed to Fishermen and Fishing ships drop off 15% more food.
Urumi Swordsmen (Standard and Elite) Pierce armor increased from 0 to 1.
Urumi Swordsmen (Standard and Elite)speed increased from 1.05 to 1.1

Franks:
Cavalry HP bonus now applies starting at the castle age.

Georgians:
-50 food changed to -100 wood at the start.
Fortified Churches now cost -75 wood.
Monaspa Gold cost increased from 45 gold to 55 gold.
(Elite) Monaspa training time increased from 11 seconds to 15 seconds.
(Elite) Monaspa ROF increased from 1.8 seconds to 1.9.

Gurjaras:
Shrivamsha Rider (both standard and Elite) speed decreased from 1.6 to 1.5.

Huns:
(possibly) Receive access to Steppe Lancers, also affected by the Cavalry Archer Discount.
Tarkans training time from stables no longer reduced and be the same as Tarkans trained in castles

Italians:
Lose access to Ring Archer Armor.
Lose access to Shipwright.
New civilization bonus: Archer Armor upgrades give double benefit to Archer units.

Incas:
Slinger training time increased from 25 seconds to 30 seconds in castle age, restored to 25 in Imperial Age.

Japanese:
Fishing ships no longer works 5% faster in Dark Age.
Samurai (Standard and Elite) melee armor increased from 1 to 2.
Samurai also takes -3 damage from unique units.
Cavalry Archers +2 attack vs archers removed.

Khmer:
Battle Elephant speed bonus also applies to Ballista Elephant.
Lose access to Hussar.

Koreans:
Infantry and Archers wood discount removed.
New bonus: Villagers drop off 15% more wood.
War Wagon cost reduced from 200w to 100w.

Malay:
Plate Mail Armor isn’t free anymore.
Non-Elite Karambit Warriors -1 Pierce Armor

Mayans:
Foot Archer discount reduced from 20%/30% in castle/Imperial age to 15%/20%.
Longer lasting resources reduced from 15% to 10%.

Mongols:
Hunters workrate reduced from 40% to 33%.
Light Cavalry/Steppe Lancer HP bonus adjusted to be 20% in castle age, 30% in Imperial
Nomads replaced by Toumen (400w 400g): Steppe Lancers attack 20% faster.

Persians:
Savar upgrade cost increased from 1000 food, 600 gold to 1150 food, 650 gold.

Poles:
Lose access to Arbalester.
Lechitic Legacy effect reduced from 33% to 25% of trample damage.

Portuguese:
All units cost -20% gold changed into Military units cost -20% gold (Monks aren’t affected anymore)
Team bonus: Technologies now research 15% faster instead of 25%.

Romans:
Elite Centurion upgrade cost decreased from 1100 food, 900 gold to 900 food, 700 gold.
Centurion Gold cost decreased from 85 gold to 70 gold.

Saracens:
Mameluke cost changed from 55f 85g to 75f 55g.
Mameluke (Standard and Elite) training time reduced from 23 seconds to 20(18) seconds.
Camel HP bonus reduced from 25% to 15% in castle age, 25% in Imperial.
Receive access to Shipwright.

Sicilians:
Feudal Serjeants training time increased from 16 seconds to 19 seconds.
Serjeant (Standard and Elite) attack increased from 8 to 9 and 11 to 12.
Farm upgrades giving +125% food changed to Farm upgrades are 100% more effective and give +1 carry capacity

Spanish:
University technolgies also affected by the Blacksmith no gold technologies bonus.
(Standard) Conquistador -5 HP and -1 melee armor.

Tatars:
Herdables food increased from +50% to 100%.
Silk Armor cost reduced from 400 wood, 300 gold to 300 wood, 200 gold.
Flaming Camel gold cost reduced from 30 gold to 20 gold
Flaming Camel speed increased from 1.3 to 1.43.
Flaming Camel training time reduced from 20 seconds to 12 seconds.

Turks:
Elite Jannisary accuracy increased from 65% to 75%.

Vietnamese:
Paper Money moved to Castle age and cost changed from 200w 550f to 200w 300g.
Chatras moved to Imperial Age, cost adjusted from 250f 250g to 500f 500g, and also improves the battle elephant trample damage from 33% to 50%.

Vikings:
Longboat (Standard and Elite) hitpoints reduced by 10.

5 Likes

I think these are mostly very good changes! They are a lot so there is for sure something i would do different, but well done! Especially nerfs to most of the dominant civs

Most of them are really good. However I must say you went for overkill approach when it comes to nerf and for buffing, you suggested a lot of things that you know full well that will never happen.

Edit : After reading for 2nd time, I disagree with 75% of them. And rest 25% while I’m on the same page, you went way too extreme.

3 Likes

Heavily dislike that. Not just for civ design, but it also makes thematically no sense. Bengalis have chariots because their cavalry was poor for a long time.

I think this wins some sort of award for the most random bonus ever.

Really? Take away the main thing it has going for it when the opponent isn’t going archers? I don’t see this as a positive change to make it more RPS.

NOW we’re on to something that’s actually based.

Ok this is a funny nod to the Romans.

And now you make me sad again.

3 Likes

Civ balance is more important and the civ still sucks so hard on open maps while kind of broken on closed maps with their deathball of Ele Archers.

But why? We already got the cavalry +2 attack vs skirmisher for Bnegalis so why not? Dravidians are too weak to Cavalry raiding on open maps and that adresses that.

Shri rider are still too fast and too unfun to play against, try for a moment fight them, see how they just run away without drawback…

This bonus was just thrown for no reason to a civ that was already in a good spot, and they aren’t pre buff Burmese/Turks level of weak vs archers.

Most of these are terrible ngl.

Also it sounds like you are making changes for the sake of making changes.

For example, meso civs aren’t super strong right now (except maybe for Mayans on some maps who are by no means must pick, either). There is no reason to nerf a unit that people learned to play against (Eagle Warrior), and then pile up on the nerf and nerf EEW in Imp, too! It makes you look like you are nerfing foe the sake of nerfing, because even on these forums I have never read that EEW is considered OP.

Then you go on and nerf Aztec Monks (very arbitrary nerf given how Aztecs are considered mid tier ish atm). So what should Aztecs play in Castle Age? They don’t have Thumb Ring or any bonus for their Siege.

Then you proceed to buff a unit that is stellar in its role (Jaguar Warrior) because you seem unable to accept that Archers should counter infantry, so instead of recognizing that JW are niche because they are meant to be anti-infantry (a role at which they excel), you give them 1.1 speed (higher than Xbow!) in an attempt to make them a generalist unit that you can spam similarly to Huskarls (even though that’s not their role).

These are 3 examples that show very mediocre game understanding, I could do more but I hope they prove my point.

11 Likes

Ok then why mesos have been too dominant? Why we still see mesos being top pick on most agressive maps DESPITE the nerf to eagles (Incas are the clear example now)? also why is fair to left eagles so easy to tech into while that isn’t the case for Militia Line or the Infantry UUs, by making harder to upgrade eagles you give a chance to other civs to tech into the Militia line so they finally feel a proper counter.

Do you eve realize the few Infantry UUs that actually see more action now (Karambits, Woad Raiders) have actually good speed, Jaguar Warrior is also expensive and even the extra PA they got wasn’t even an enough buff.

I would call that VERY debatable. Especially as it would be miles better to fix the civ with thematic changes, instead of unthematic ones, otherwise what’s the point of civs being based on anything?

You literally pointed out the perfect example of why not. That Bengali change was the most random thing imaginable.

Since they die hard to anything that isn’t archers in combat, it’s actually necessary for them to have that speed.

Samurai were mostly horse archers for the majority of their existence in the Middle Ages. I don’t see it as random to give their Cavalry Archers some sort of bonus.

2 Likes

Because otherwise we would just get civs being wayy too unplayable if we go into this “thematic” way, think why Chinese had to lose Redemption to keep Block Printing.

Even after the proposed nerf, they still have the same speed as Light Cavalry, that isn’t really something that will kill the unit tbh.

1 Like

That’s…not the example you think it is. Block Printing is something people asked for Chinese…because they invented it. Redemption going was the trade-off, so it proves my point that you can make balanced changes that are thematic.

Unless you have tested that, I’m going to press X to doubt. Especially as Gurjaras have discounted Light Cavalry of their own, which they would be drawn into competition with.

1 Like

Didnt read all.

Why nerf xbow again?

Good changes.

I think Incas deserve a bigger nerf than Aztecs.

I believe that it is fair for CA to have +2 vs archers. Previously, there was a post suggesting changing samurai to melee cavalry or cavalry archer to fight ranged UU. But +2 is simpler and samurai was good at mounted archery. I think +2 vs archer is fairly good.

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I am just going to focus on the general upgrades.

This would be fun. It might make them a tad strong in multiplayer.

This might curtail Eagle momentum plays.

fine

That would be absurdly beneficial, but the greater point is that you want Castle Age booming to be simplified for the Georgians.

This one has been popular for a while. It would certainly help them out in the Imperial Age.

I would baby step to a .92 to see if you really wanted this sort of thing.

1 Like

Armenians need more nerfs in naval. They must lose aleast one naval bonus or tech. Currently they have too much different naval bonus/tech.

  • Loses projectile bonus
  • Or loses +1 range bonus (both dromon & galley-line) but gains Siege Engineers (but no bonus projectile for Dromons)
  • or only loses blast radius buff for demo ships

They are currently a bit op in naval and they have access to shipwright. In addition, they need a bit buff for cavalry. Give access to Plate Barding Armor.

Huns needs a more relevant and usable imperial technology. The new technology would give cavalry raiding capabilities:

Cavalry (or only Tarkan) generate resources when destroy economic buildings, Monasteries, Castles; enemy relics generate -50% resources.
Also need access to Steppe Lancers (+Elite) without discounts.

Mongols:

Blockquote Light Cavalry/Steppe Lancer HP bonus adjusted to be 20% in castle age, 30% in Imperial
Nomads replaced by Toumen (400w 400g): Steppe Lancers attack 20% faster.

Or simply put the free HP bonus behind a Castle Age technology without faster attack rate.

1 Like

I think just removing Shipwright will suffice, they have a strong economy with a Galley bonus + UT that benefits Galleys, Dromons and Demolition ships, having Shipwright is just such unneeded buff to the area they already excel at, on the other side other naval civs like Berbers and Saracens need buff in water.
But also Vikings need to be nerfed on water ASAP, check hidden cup qualifier and see Vikings…

Nah I think doing what I said will be enough to nerf them and also kind of re locating their power.

1 Like

I like this idea. Add +30% HP to Nomads, which is currently useless. That way their early castle age power spike is delayed. If that’s too much of a nerf, make it only apply to Steppe Lancers and leave the Light Cav bonus a default.

It’s the lancers that are the real OP one.

1 Like

Then why not propose to change this random weak civ bonus to be replaced instead of asking to give them Knights which is almost impossible? Bulgarians have higher chance to get SL than Bengalis get Knight.

3 Likes

Armenians: dont have the DLC, therefore have no opinion (thanks WE for no fixing the regional pricing “issue”)

Aztecs: seems ok

Bengalis: why remove EA from Paiks? Rather make them more usable for all SA civs(like more speed in change of HP), them giving knights and nerfing Paiks.

Berbers: no opinion

Byzantines: no opinion

Bulgarians: not sure I agrre with that

Burgundians: agree

Celts: agree

Cumans: agree with 2nd and rd items

Dravidians: Change a0: didnt read that thread about this bonus; change b): why?; change c) and d): agree

Franks: agree

Georgians: dont have the DLC, therefore have no opinion (thanks WE for no fixing the regional pricing “issue”)

Gurjaras: disagree

Huns: no Elite Steppe Lancers, this would be too broken on DM; agree with Tarkans

Italians: why no shipwright? No opinion about the armour thing

Incas: why?

Japanese: ok-ish

Khmer: not sure if agree with those

Koreans: not sure if agree with those

Mayans: agree with first, not sure about the second

Mongols: a): disagree; b) agree; c): arent Mongols Steppe Lancers already a threat in Castle Age?

Persians: ok-ish

Poles: no sure about those

Portuguese: disagree

Romans: not sure if agree with those

Saracens: a): agree; b): hmm, disagree; c): agree; d): disagree

Sicilians: ok-ish

Spanish: ok-ish

Tatars: agree with those

Turks: agree

Vietnamise: agree with those

Vikings: disagree with those; rather Longboats to not stack together so much

most proposals are good, but.

Elite cataphract change is so random and doesn’t change the fact that the main reasons why people don’t use them often are the overpriced upgrades and trained from castles. Logistica’s cost is absolutely absurd for what it offers. 800f/600g for a tech that only affects one unit and this unit needs multiple castle to train. Either make it cheaper or make it affect knight line (trample damage only) or make them trainable from stables like tarkans (this fits with the name logistica).

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A HUGE NO to these changes. they are ridiculous or just random.

Directed to the hussar removal.

i dont mind giving steppe lancer but it’s clearly too strong on imp.

1 Like

Are you playing a different game where Incas are not a thing?

4 Likes