Ideas for Goths

Carrying +15 food is probably way better than one assumes at first glance. Its probably means a better farming rate than slavs.

My favorite change would be to either apply the +10Pop at the start of the game (basicly 2 extra free houses), or +5 pop per age. (I think Goth capping out at 220 Pop in Imp would still be fine)

1 Like

Ah you already made the idea ‘hunting like khmer farmers’! i agree that would bring Goths next level in early games. And change their gameplay in an interesting way.
Like agressive hunting. Fast food in early game, then its easier to rush or easier to go fast castle.
And when you’re at that point the hunting is over and you transition to farms. So it will be only a temporary bonus but still a very strong one in the early game. It won’t stay OP like Khmer bonus which spans throughout the whole game. Thus it does give a very strong boost to goths early eco to get where you want or get the rush that you want.

That’s fair. I suppose Aztec and Mayans are less flexible due to the thematic constraints of lacking both gunpowder and cav. Incas more questionable, as they’re still gold-heavy, but have a lot of good counter options. My point was more that Goths have some useful units beyond infantry out of necessity (no BBC for example and they’d get rolled by siege), but being flexible per se hasn’t ever been their intended strength. Even when they go for hussar or gunpowder, they have no advantage (eco or military bonus) that helps with those units like so many other civs do.

Of course, I always start this discussion with infantry civs myself, because it shows how a sizable portion of civs with better ecos (and usually more flexibility) can beat Goths at their own game by going infantry. Most civs without great infantry have at least have 1 unit that’s particularly helpful vs. Goths’ lategame, whether it’s an anti-infantry UU, or strong ranged/gunpowder unit. Mayans are probably the only civ that doesn’t have any decent answer to Goths past Perfusion (and still struggle vs. Ghilman as well). Some matchups are a little awkward, like Viets or Ethiopians vs. Goths in Imp, but they have enough options to have a fighting chance once you get enough production buildings down. Even Britons can do okay with FU champ + Arb.

In any case, I think the Huskarl spam in particular is what we must avoid overbuffing, which is why I’d prefer starting with a general longsword + buff, with an open mind to a moderate eco bonus if that doesn’t move the needle enough. There’s even the potential to moderate the effect of any future eco or general buffs by slightly increasing the base Huskarl price, or removing its +3 vs. Eagles.

1 Like

I agree it does not fit their theme, but Lithuanians (cav civ) got faster skirms.

I think an eco bonus is easy for low-mid elos, especially if they play passively. Also, there are not a lot of eco bonuses left, let alone trying to find one that only affects the mid game and not the early game.

There is a lot of risk in going out to deer. Deer vills will be vulnerable to rushes. Not only that, sending vills out to deer means no vills under your TC, which allows enemy armies to walk under your TC and kill other vills and it is very hard to full wall before this happens. Pros actually wall towards the TC and use arrows to deter the enemy. The reward for this bonus is not that great either. You can kill the deer and build a mill near the corpses to get the same effect. I agree this is a nice QOL feature and think this should replace the current Goths’ hunt bonus, but it won’t change Goths much.

In general, Infantry are not good, knights are better and archers kill infantry too easily. It is not a matter of making Infantry cheaper.
+1 pierce armor is the Malians bonus and should not be given to Goths.

Hussar without final armor is not a real option. They just die too quickly to ranged units. Many civs get hand cannoneers, no one uses them. Even Burgundians who get extra damage almost never use them. Goths only make hand cannons when the enemy has better champs than Goths. BBC is good for countering siege mainly and is very important on closed maps. Cannon galleon rarely sees use, even on Islands. Gurjaras and Hindustanis are actually more flexible in practice, while Bengalis and Dravidians are still weak need balance changes.

Having so many civ bonuses on infantry just makes it difficult to balance. They are either OP or weak. Devs really don’t know what to do about Goths. Most other infantry civs have only 1 bonus for their infantry and they are balanced.

In general, Infantry are not good, knights are better and archers kill infantry too easily. It is not a matter of making Infantry cheaper.
+1 pierce armor is the Malians bonus and should not be given to Goths.

Is Malian infantry weak? I think the malian militia line is the most well-rounded unit in the game, because it combines the advantages of trash and gold units: It has the stats of a gold unit, but low gold costs, and a very low number of counter units. The mailian pierce armor bonus is +0/+1/+2/+3. Pierce armor is such a basic stat, that multiple civs could have bonuses regarding it. And I suppose +1/+1/+1/+1 for goth. Just +1 falls of in the later states in the game, and Goth don’t get the last armor upgarde, so Goth champions would have +4 pierce armor, what is much less than the Malian +8. It is a bonus that would fit the Goth because the Huskarl is a defining unit for the Goth and it would just make all the infantry a bit more Huskarl-like. If the Goth weakness is dying to early enemy aggresion, malian-like man-at-arms in the feudal age could solve the problem.

Buffing other military than infantry doesn’t match the Goth character. Another option is to just give them Suplies.

Hussar without final armor is not a real option. They just die too quickly to ranged units.

Hussar or Scouts are a good option either in the feudal age if the enemy has archers or in the late game when there is no more gold. Hussars can still kill enemy villagers even with less armor. Figthing military is not really the primary point of them for Goth imo.

Goths only make hand cannons when the enemy has better champs than Goths.

Or other infantry hard counter like Teutonic knight, Shotel warriors, Samurai, Gbeto, Throwing Axeman. It is an important option, because these units really hard counter goth infantry. And it hurts civs like Incas to not have the same option.

Cannon galleon rarely sees use, even on Islands.

Civs without Cannon galleon have basically no counterplay against bombard towers on water maps, and the game can end really sad for them, like chopping every single tree on the center island of Migration and still don’t have a chance against Portuguese Feitorias and bombard towers.

Having so many civ bonuses on infantry just ##### #### #### to balance. They are either OP or weak. Devs really don’t know what to do about Goths. Most other infantry civs have only 1 bonus for their infantry and they are balanced.

I am not sure if they are actually too strong in low elo and too weak in high elo. Both might be acceptable. But even if it is not balanced think it is balanceable. Just make the early game stronger and late game weaker if necessary. When Goth had 35% cheaper infantry in all ages they were considered strong in high elo. Maybe give them a 28%/30%/32%/34% discount.

Malian infantry are good, generic infantry are weak. Making them cheaper does not really solve the issue in Castle age where Goths usually lose.

No, it is bad design to give the same bonus to multiple civs and should be avoided as much as possible.

The whole identity of Malians is Huskarl-like infantry without Huskarls. Giving Goths this bonus hurts the identity of Malians.

Lithuanians are cav + monk civ but get faster spears and skirms. Dravidians are infantry + naval civ but get bonus for skirms and EA. The concept of giving bonuses to units that don’t match the civ identity is not unprecedented, and balance should be prioritized.
Civ identity should be defined by what units the civ generally wants to play. Even if we give Goths a buff to archer line, Goths will still be forced transition out of it (due to missing techs) and into infantry. If a civ’s identity is non-meta units (such as infantry), then they need bonuses that force the enemy to make units that the civ’s preferred units can counter. If Goths make archers, the enemy might be forced to make skirms which can be countered by Goth champs/Huskarl.

Not really, TCs and castles kill Hussars quickly enough without the last armor. You will lose a lot less vills to Hussar raid than if you had the last armor. Normally you would have to make halbs to stop the vill kills.

Teutons, Franks will kill Goths with strong eco and Knight rush. Ethiopians, Japanese will kill Goths with with archers before Goths can get castles and eco to support Huskarls. So, the matchups you stated are actually rare in practice. Also, Incas have slingers and kamayuks but they can win with eagle rush.

Trebs can still be used vs. BBT from the opposite shore. Water maps are rarely played, and even among them, there almost none where trebs cannot range the opposite shore.

Goths were strong in high elo because they had cheap militia in dark age. This allowed some strategies where you never age up and just keep making militia. Devs removed this and now the bonus is not really until late castle / imp.

Malian infantry are good, generic infantry are weak. Making them cheaper does not really solve the issue in Castle age where Goths usually lose.

Do they lose in the Castle age because of a weak feudal age before or because of the castle age itself? It would surprise me if the castle age itself is the problem.

I think cheaper units solve a lot. 35% cheaper means a lot more than 35% stronger. 35% cheaper means 1.54 times as much units. And if you compare it to for example Jpanaese 33% faster attack speed, 54% more units mean 54% more HP and 54% more attack. So the 35% discount makes the infantry actually 1.54*1.54 = 2.37 times as strong. 137% stronger. And because of this small changes can matter a lot. A 25% discount like in feudal age means just 78% stronger.

No, it is bad design to give the same bonus to multiple civs and should be avoided as much as possible.

I’ don’t know, maybe. But I don’t really need buffs. But if there should be buffs Suplies would be a possibility. This one really fits the Goth identity.

The whole identity of Malians is Huskarl-like infantry without Huskarls. Giving Goths this bonus hurts the identity of Malians.

All infantrry without good pierce armor feels week. Really good infantry have only the Goth, Malians and american civs. Maybe it would be a solution to give the militia line in general 1 more pierce armor including Malians which would have even more than now.

If Goths make archers, the enemy might be forced to make skirms which can be countered by Goth champs/Huskarl.

I don’t really want to play Archers with Goths. I don’t really get civs like Lithuanians with no clear concept. Are they about drushing? Rushing FC to get the relics? About an op unique unit? And then there are random boni for spears and skirms. That is not good design imo. Goth have a much clearer identity.

Teutons, Franks will kill Goths with strong eco and Knight rush. Ethiopians, Japanese will kill Goths with with archers before Goths can get castles and eco to support Huskarls.

I guess you talk abot high elo here were I have no experience. The last three time I played Ethiopians as Goth went like this: First game went to imperial age and I got completely destroyed by Shotel Warriors, some few archers were killed earlier by my Huskarls just in time.

In the second game I tried to adapt and rushed with Militia and man-at-arms. He survived and destroyed me with archers in feudal.

Third game I drushed again with tons of militia, and he resign before I even reached feudal.

Goth spearman-line should counter Frank knight line on paper. I think the throwing axeman are the problem for Goth.

Trebs can still be used vs. BBT from the opposite shore.

Yeah I had this situation as Portuguese, but Cannon galleons two-shot Trebs. There wasn’t much he could do, once it was set up.

Goths were strong in high elo because they had cheap militia in dark age. This allowed some strategies where you never age up and just keep making militia. Devs removed this and now the bonus is not really until late castle / imp.

It worked because of the 137% stronger militia due to the 35% discount. Now they have just a 20% discount in dark age what results in 56% stronger milita. Maybe it just not as much as needed, but 35% was too much. Maybe 30% would be balanced. Just tweak it until it is balanced.

I think you didn’t realize this is broken.

Here’s one very cool idea: make them actually speak Gothic.

1 Like

What about lowering the train time of Castle Huskarls from 16 > 12.

Goths are bad because they are predictable, but in Castle Age, not in Imp, so Plate Barding Armor is both not needed and would make them too versatile late-game when they are already very strong and stronger than many civs.

Their problems come early: in Dark/early Feudal you are encouraged so hard to make Militia, which also makes the opponent expect Militia and open Archers for example. In Feudal you have only a small eco bonus of +1 Villager. In Castle age your problems start to show hard because you can’t make too many Monks (bad tech tree), you can’t boom (no true bonus like Britons) or Teutons. You normally open Crossbows but it’s not a unit you want to mass because Arbalest is not available. You have FU Castle Age Knights but again it’s not a unit you want to mass. Which means that Goth Castle age will always be something very predictable like 8 Crossbows with 2-3 Knights, with no eco bonus to outboom opponent or army bonus to make some form of 1 TC all-in play.

By the time your military bonus that gives you a bit of flexibility comes into play, Anarchy, your opponent has already either scouted it, or gained an advantage, or already tech switching. Huskarls can’t immediately threaten in Castle age so likely the resources you spent to make a Castle to secure your eco are resources lost in the boom race. This means you generally don’t enter Imp on even terms, which is what you’d like, and to top it off, in Imp only Elite Huskarl is good (there are UUs which in contrast stay afloat in Imp even with the Castle age variant, for example Magyar Huszar or Mangudai or Obuch), and Champion upgrade takes significant amount of food, too. So your Imp play isn’t an immediate Imp play, but has the same buildup time of something like Elite Mangudai techs (with the difference that a bunch of non-elite Mangudais can actually fight Imperial armies), which means that in early Imp you actually have nothing to show (Vikings have the same problem after their Arbalest play gets cleaned up).

Solutions to this are give Goths something to play with in Castle Age, for example, Siege Workshops cost -50% (just throwing a random idea here as that’s likely too strong). In Imp, they could use something too to make their transition a bit faster, for example Champion upgrade costs -33% to help the flood start a bit easier given that you don’t enter Imp on even terms due to opponent having a mass of their main unit while you likely don’t.

I would be careful with buffing Goths tho, -40% off of your main unit is A LOT, compare to Berbers, Huns etc. they all get more meager bonuses. We don’t want Goths to autowin by racing to Imp, either, the moment they get a good game and manage to get an eco lead in early Castle age.

This means you generally don’t enter Imp on even terms, which is what you’d like, and to top it off, in Imp only Elite Huskarl is good (there are UUs which in contrast stay afloat in Imp even with the Castle age variant, for example Magyar Huszar or Mangudai or Obuch)

The Elite Huskarl upgrade feels not so important. Overall Imp is not so important with Goths imo. If the opponent reaches imp it can work to just stay in castle age and build infantry. For the cost of Imperial age and the Elite Huskral upgarde you can make 39 Huskarls instead instantly. These Huskrals have 8 Pierce armor, anti-building damage and anti-archer damage. If the opponent has castles and trebs you can fight that with 39 Huskarls plus your other units.

With other civs it feels much more like you have to get imp too to be able to do anything against castles and trebs.