Ideas for Goths

The latest patch improves the Portuguese. The Portuguese were previously considered by some to be a less motivated civilization, so getting the buff itself is a good thing, but not what we’re talking about here.

Goths seem to have not changed in two years.

I don’t know if the current state is what the devs want, but at least some ideas are listed here. Some old and some new, some mine and some others, but since I didn’t want to revive old threads, I created this new one.

  • Remain the team bonus, infantry siege bonus and infantry cost bonus.

Keep their iconic Militia rush and infantry flood powerful.

  • Gain the Plate Barding Armor.

The weakness of the infantry flood strategy is that it develops its strength late. Plate Barding Armor allows them no longer one-dimensional. Now they can use decent Cavaliers to help them transition to the infantry flood or have a place in team games.

  • Gain the basic stone walls.

This is also to help them survive the mid game, especially before they access UTs. From what I’ve observed, many people feel their designs without stone walls suck rather than interesting. It is often said that this is their identity, but maintaining such an identity for a dying civilization is no fun. We also have Cumans, so lack of stone walls is not exclusive identity that hard to change. If we had to need 2 civs without stone walls, maybe the Huns could lose it.

  • Loom is no longer researched instantly.
  • Villagers are no longer having bonus attack against boars.
  • Units receive -50% damage from animals.

These changes still maintain similar effects, like villagers being less likely to be killed by wolves, and hunting boars safer and easier, but help keep Goths from being so hated in certain situations, like lamings are easier to stop, or villagers fight more fair on nomad map.

With the changes above, we have cavalry as a viable option to use if needed, and stone walls to protect the boom, so we can survive to the time of infantry flood more safely. But honestly these abilities are only basic to most other civs, maybe they still need some decent economic bonuses to make them more competitive.

  • Economic techs now are researched instantly.

Inspired by instant Loom. The biggest advantage of this is that it has the opportunity to provide a lead in the late Feudal age, such as about 3 more villagers or clicking age advance earlier.

  • Villagers carry +15 food not only from hunting but also from farming.

When we are all harvesting the meat of animals under TC, the effect of the hunter’s carry amount is not important. Maybe also allow farmers to achieve the same effect. Archaeology shows that the Visigoths, unlike the Ostrogoths, were predominantly farmers.

  • Farms are built 100% faster.

Just a little candy. But why not?
Perhaps this could reflect the frequent migration of the Goths. People quickly opened up farmland in new places.

Finally, about the population bonus.
The current one only apply to the Imperial age and (if I remember correctly) need to wait until the population cap is reached.
My current idea is to break it apart, which means when hitting the Feudal/Castle/Imperial age, directly increase the population cap by 3/3/4 without requiring buildings. Alternatively, every four houses or TCs or every castles built provide the extra population cap permanently by 1, up to 10.

Buffing the goths is something that completely on board with. However, I think that is should be indirect.
They way they play now is as follows: the goth player constantly tries to get to late castle/imperial age while maintaining a good eco, while their opponent tries to destroy them before that point. This is because if goths get to that point with a good eco, there is very little you can do to stop the infamous goth flood.

They have two power spikes, early feudal and imperial. The boar hunting bonus lets them do an early drush/m@a rush. After this point, they have nothing till imperial age.

While I do think they need a small eco bonus in the mid-game, I don’t think they should have stone walls if this is the case. Villagers carry +15 food is a decent eco option. It does have the downside of having to force drop in some cases (same with dravidian fishing ships), but it’ll be a small boost of a few percentages in food collection.

The best way to buff them isn’t changing goths at all, I think. It is buffing the militia line so that the longswordsman becomes a decent unit.

However, I don’t think there is any merit to breaking the pop cap that way. It is unusual to hit the pop cap before late castle age anyway. I would rather change it to 10% extra population, buffing it from 210 to 220.

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Their Militia/M@A rush is powerful only because of the cost discount in my opinion. They do not need to dig 10 more gold for rush, and they are benefited from siege bonus just after hitting the new age.

The current hunting bonus is actually almost no effect. The attack bonus is just for hunting boars safely and sometimes for killing opponent animal meanly. The carry amount bonus is really unimportant when people harvet at TC as I described.

I think stone walls are fine as long as it’s not a very strong economic bonus. Or should I say, I am willing to try.
They don’t have good towers, nor do they have fortified stone walls.

Leaving aside the historical reference that the Goths had established settled kingdoms and cities so they are definitely more worthy of stone walls than the Huns. The stone walling doesn’t always work strategically. We have to spend the stone that should be used to build castles or TCs, and send villagers to build them, which actually hurts the early economy. We also don’t often see stone walls used for other civs in most games.

This is not what I suggested.

I also agree Goths can get a slight buff. But it should be done by indirect way of buffing militia line. If 2HS;/Champion get bonus damage vs Hussar, goths will become good trash war civ for example.

That destroy Goths identity of infantry-only civ entirely. And I am not fan of increasing FU Hussar civ even more.

Stone walling itself is rare in open map. It doesn’t help them in open map at all. Might be slightly helpful in closed map where you can repair/rebuild stone wall as goths. But only a niche situation.

Loom change of researching “instantly” itself is quite weird I think. It work like research in 1-2 second. This bonus was introduced because Loom free was quite oppressive with Lame+super cheap drush. I don’t think that weird concept need to be extended to all other eco techs.

I think there is already plenty of civs having farm bonus and not fan of adding more.
Goths is not work as economic civ. They can work as low eco because they can counter most unit with infantry and it means fewer upgrade is needed than other civs. So they don’t need huge eco bonus.


This might make the Goths overpowered.

Giving them stone walls takes away from their identity. Goths are meant to be Barbarians. (that’s what the Romans saw them as) They are a late game powerhouse and great in team games already. The Goth Flood is terrifying to face, especially with trade and support units from allies.

The Goth lack stone walls, but they throw bodies at their enemy as their walls.

Maybe give them some other defensive bonus to compensate them for their lack of stone walls for 1v1 games. A bonus for skirmishers and maybe spearmen. So, they have a better chance to get the Goth Flood going.

Economic techs now are researched instantly.

What is the historical significance of this bonus? The Goths by the Romans’ perspective were Barbarians.

Gain the Plate Barding Armor.

Goths do not need this. Having a weakness is fine. Being pure infantry is okay.

Farms are built 100% faster.

I’m sure the Goths were okay farmers, but they were not significantly known for that.

The boar hunting bonus does nothing. Just saves a bit of HP on your luring villager. And occasionally even makes you kill boar too soon.

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Goths in the 5th century were considered barbarians by the Romans, but by the 8th century I’d hardly call them barbarians

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I thought about making their pop bonus not need houses to be active (i.e. they start with +10 pop and maintain the 210 max). Might not be much, but I wonder how much +50 wood and villager time in Dark Age would change them.



I don’t think stone walls would do much on Arabia. It’s arena and similar closed maps that’s a problem. Goths are much harder in such cases because they can boom away, but you need to break their walls to get in and hurt them. If you give them stone walls, they can remake chunks of walls you’ve had to work hard to destroy.

What you are suggesting is something like an indirect wood/space bonus. And possibly a little bit more leeway on getting housed. I don’t mind this, but I don’t think it would fundamentally change much about them.

Now that I think about it more, yeah, the hunting bonus doesn’t do much at all. Except in maps where there is a lot of hunt to be had (African clearing, black forest, etc), this bonus is pretty much useless.

Based on my observations and my experience, I don’t believe that a purely one-dimensional civ can be interesting and competitive.
An identity that makes civ neither interesting nor competitive, I don’t think is worth holding on to.
Not to mention, what they get are just normal Cavaliers without any bonus.
Removing Hussars is fine if they successfully get the armor, by the way.

This is intended to provide more tools to survive. You won’t necessarily need it often, but you’ll appreciate it when you need it.

In addition, since there is the plate barding armor, when you in open map, you can use the militia rush first, and then survive like a cavalry civ to help you transition to infantry in the Imperial age.

The flood of infantry requires healthy economic support, otherwise it will consume resources in disguise. That’s why it often has to wait until the imperial age.

I have explained this.

I’ve already explained how this idea came about.
Why must every civ bonus have historical significance? Most civs have bonuses that have no clear historical significance.

I just found one for you from the wiki.

"Roman writers note that the Goths neither assessed taxes on their own people nor on their subjects. The early 5th-century Christian writer ####### compared the Goths’ and related people’s favourable treatment of the poor to the miserable state of peasants in Roman Gaul:

For in the Gothic country the barbarians are so far from tolerating this sort of oppression that not even Romans who live among them have to bear it. Hence all the Romans in that region have but one desire, that they may never have to return to the Roman jurisdiction. It is the unanimous prayer of the Roman people in that district that they may be permitted to continue to lead their present life among the barbarians."

These Romans might not stand up to fight for the Goths against the Roman Empire, but had provided knowledge, technology and values ​​from the Empire, which helped the Gothic society more advanced and eventually Romanized the Gothic society, instead of always being the so-called “barbarians”.

Every late-game civ is like this. But I think once you break down the walls and hurt Goth economy, it’s more difficult for them to recover like other civs and to defense your next wave, especially before the Imperial age.

In my opinion, as long as the extra population is not changed to get it at the beginning of the game or to get it all immediately at once, it will not affect the balance very much. The first option I stated above is to split the extra 10 population of the Imperial age to about 3 each in the Feudal, Castle and Imperial age. The second option is equivalent to giving just 1 extra after every 20 population rooms you obtained by buildings.

Of course, the population bonus is not something Goths really need to change.

I think the Goth are really well-designed and should not be changed much. For me theyseem to be the strongest civ actually.

Instant loom is nice, but actually less useful than for other civs because of the bonus damage to boars. Maybe free loom makes more sense, but can be op, because the Goth militia rush is already strong.

But one change I suppose is that hunters can carry infinit amounts of hunted food, so that they will not go back to the same deer or boar twice ever. Without that they still go sometimes to deer with maybe 10 food left on it and bring it back to the farm first before they hunt the next deer. This kind of hunting should be more efficient with Goths. The bonus damge to boars could be also applied to deer, so they are more easy to oneshot, so they don’t run away after the first hit.

Goths are fine at low-mid elos and only high elo players need Goths to get buffs.

Not opposed to this but does not help them get to their infantry spam. When Goths are not playing infantry, they are completely generic and will be slower than all other civs. By castle age, almost all other civs have bonuses that give them an advantage over Goths and high-level players will use them to kill Goths in Castle age or early Imp. Other civs can get to Cavaliers or Arbs faster than Goths. So, giving them decent cavaliers does not help because everyone tries to kill Goths before that.

This is a nice, but not very significant buff. Pros are more afraid of Hussar spam than Goth spam. One of the reasons for this is that even if Goths get to ideal compositions, they can still be stopped by raiding their eco. I remember an old Hera vs. Viper youtube game where Goths lost to Hussar raids. Having stone walls would have helped in this situation. The problem stone walls are not really used by pros even when it would help. It is hard for pros to do it on top of everything else.

I don’t agree with these. This is a nerf. Instant loom is the Goths eco bonus and results in Goths being 1 villager ahead whenever the enemy decides to get loom. Very few games in AOE2 revolve around how much animal damage you take and is an extremely weak bonus. 100% faster farms is also weak. Not even worth listing as a civ bonus.

These are so strong that other fairly balanced civs have weaker versions of these bonuses. They would definitely be broken on Goths.

Players can lure hunt to the TC, so there is no walking distance. Pros do this, but most do not.

The problem with Goths is that Goths are very strong at low to mid elos and fall off hard at higher elos. One of the reasons for this is that Goth spam seems special at low-mid elo, but ordinary at higher elo. When low elo players want to spam a unit, they rely on a UT and civ bonuses. When pros want to spam a unit, they make lots of production buildings and assign villagers to appropriate resources. At high elos, Goth spam is strong, but hard to get to and not unstoppable even if you get there. If you want to buff Goths, you have to do it in a way that only high elo players can make use of it. Otherwise, you risk breaking the balance at low-mid elos, which is most of the playerbase.

The only bonus I can think of that fits this description is “Archer line +10% move speed”. This may not fit from historical standpoint, but it does fit the players’ needs. +10% move speed allows archers to take less damage from scouts, skirms, knights while running away and allows them to micro around mangonels a little more easily. These are things that only high elo players can take advantage of. Goths lack arb, thumb ring so low-mid elo players will not use them much.

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I like the idea of replacing the current boar bonus with “takes half damage from animals”

Players can lure hunt to the TC, so there is no walking distance. Pros do this, but most do not.

The bonus could be most useful on maps like Steppe or African clearing with a lot of deer. I just think the goth hunt bonus should shine more on those maps like the Mongol hunt bonus. And I imagine that even pros don’t really lure most deer to the TC on Steppe.

The problem with Goths is that Goths are very strong at low to mid elos and fall off hard at higher elos. One of the reasons for this is that Goth spam seems special at low-mid elo, but ordinary at higher elo. When low elo players want to spam a unit, they rely on a UT and civ bonuses. When pros want to spam a unit, they make lots of production buildings and assign villagers to appropriate resources. At high elos, Goth spam is strong, but hard to get to and not unstoppable even if you get there. If you want to buff Goths, you have to do it in a way that only high elo players can make use of it. Otherwise, you risk breaking the balance at low-mid elos, which is most of the playerbase.

Maybe make the 20/25/30/35% cheaper infantry 33% in all ages. Or maybe 31-32%. Or give all infantry +1 pierce armor and deduct 1 pierce armor from Huskarl. If the infantry were better before Huskarls are available, it would buff Goths probably more for high ranked players than for low ranked players. On the other hand the late game infantry is overall maybe a tiny bit too strong.

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They should change +10 pop in imp to +3%/+6%/+10% pop in feudal/castle/imp.
Alao, what if their Palisade walls upgrade to fortified Palisade walls upon hitting castle age?


Another Goths buff thread. Maybe someday they’ll get around to it. Like I said in my OG thread a couple years ago, I don’t think making Goths more generic (cav techs, stone wall) is the way to go. “Flexibility” is always nice, but Goths have always been designed less with that in mind than arguably any other civ, and it feels bad when you’re not playing to your strengths. I think instant eco techs are too strong, and +15 carry for farmers is also too strong, but toned down versions of either bonus seem fine.

Eh, still think Goths continue to be overrated in that scenario. They’ve not been buffed in a way that addresses many other civs getting the Supplies tech. They do have a solid powerspike with Perfusion, but any strong infantry civ that can weather the storm for a couple minutes until they can get enough barracks to more or less match production. And at that point saving 7g 6f isn’t that strong when you have inferior champs to Burmese, Aztecs, Slavs, Japanese, Teutons, etc. To say nothing of raiding the Goth to death or other options for dealing with infantry. Goths entering Imp on equal footing with most other civs is unlikely, and even if they do, they’re hardly unstoppable.

TBF while I continue to think Goths need a buff, I would start with this before trying anything else. It would also help the current archer civs disguised as infantry civs (Japanese, Dravidians, Vikings) have more varied playstyles.



While this bonus would fit the bill as far as utility, I don’t like it thematically for Goths so much as for a new archer civ. I think a moderate midgame eco bonus may be the way to go, and I’m tempted to think that wouldn’t make them broken at low elos, but I’m not sure.


“Flexibility” is always nice, but Goths have always been designed less with that in mind than arguably any other civ

Goths have Hussar, Hand canoneers, cannons, and cannon galleon. That is actually some nice flexability that other civs don’t get like american indian civs.

But the civs bonus are centered around infantry and it should stay this way.

If there should be a stronger eco bonus, it should be within the hunting theme. If it was really needed they could make it that hunters don’t have to carry the food to a TC/farm like Khmer farmers. It would also have some synergy with the bonus damage against boar, since some players complain that they kill the boars too early. So players could use the scout more for scouting, what could protect goths more from early enemy aggresion by knowledge about it especially in higher elo I think.

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I should have clarified, but this is only an option for infantry civs. But you have to remember that goths do have HCs and bombards, in addition to units like decent knights and scorpions. They can use HCs, and you need a counter for that as well. Regardless, powerful infantry like Teutonic knights, Jaguar warrior, Kamayuks, Urumis, infantry buffing bonuses, or infantry counters like cataphracts aren’t available to most civs. If you are a pure archer civ, or cav civ, your chances of withstanding goths if they get to imperial with a similar economy is pretty slim imo.

In the days of “The Conquerors”, the Goths were the only civilization with 2 Unique Technologies. How about giving them a third UT to be more “unique” again?

Their additional UT could be something like this:

Shieldwall (available in Feudal Age, can be researched in the Baracks): +1 pierce armor for the Milita line. Cost: 100 food and 50 wood or maybe just 100 wood.


Back in the day (AoK AoC) the Goths were the hardcore attacking civilization going full aggression. That’s personally how i love my goths. And if you can’t stop them you get huskarls thrown at you, and if that continues you get the spam. And then you’re over anyway.
But now far in the future the Goths are not the only agressive or early agressive civ. And they lost the building attack bonus for infantry in the dark age. So they are less of a threat in the dark age.

Free loom back would be great. Would make them tower rushers.

Personally i love the boar attack bonus. You need less vills on a boar. You can task the others to use your meat carry bonus to send them out hunting for deer.
The increased carry limit lets you hunt deer closer to your enemy so they have less food to work with, and you have more. But that’s more longterm income instead of the current playstyle where we want instant food under the tc. While a longterm gameplan like hunting on the enemies side of the map ‘steals food’.

Maybe an idea would be that they gain resources from destroying buildings (with infantry). Like a Keshik gains gold. Maybe the huskarl could ‘raid’ and gain food, wood or stone.
I’m a personal fan of going fast feudal and then start a man at arms (+ archer) spam. If my man at arms could raid/generate some resources for me. Or to gain resources from having a number of buildings raised. Like raise 10 buildings receive 100 stone. Raise 20 bulidings receive another 100 stone. Then by 100 buildings you gained 1000 stone.

Historically seen the Goths gained stone walls in the late imperial age. Maybe give them stone walls after they build a castle and imperial age.

For a population idea, maybe give the goth towncenters more population cap. So they start with maybe 5 more pop cap at the beginning and need the house a little later. When you go castle age and build tc’s you will need a few houses less. But it will especially change the start of the game.

If you want late game historical ideas maybe look at Aquitania and early medieval Spain, Visigothic Iberia/Aquitania

What about a bonus like Khmer farmers but for hunters, not needing a dropoff location. This would make them like the Rus in AoE4. You would change the Goths gameplay and really focus on your hunts!