Ideas how to improve the Order of the Dragon

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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I know, the game is not out yet, so what’s wrong with me to suggest buffs? Well… the 5 days early access for content creaters gave a lot of insights and since OotD is not really complex (sadly), there is not much to figure out. We’ve seen fast castles, fast imps, extended feudal plays, 2 TC plays… And nothing was really convincing.

So:
The Order of the Dragon is not performing too well and also appears to be very reduced in regards of mechanics and synergies. So based on what we were able to see so far, which is pros getting at it, the Order of the Dragon never really looked good and has a lot of issues. It often seems weak or even helpless, despite their more powerful units.

The eco is slow and not really working out, neither in early nor in lategame. There is barely any effective bonus to the eco until vils are maxed out. The 25% gather rate and building speeds gets almost completely cancelled by the 20% longer production time and 60 food costs. And even in imp the bonus is rather meh, since there is a lack of other mechanics to help them. The units, while stronger, are not strong enough to offset all the overkill advantages opponents have against them as well as all the snyergies, unique units, unique mechanics and techs from other civs. The OotD units are eventually at best 33% better than their counterparts, but are twice as expensive and cost twice as much pop. But instead of just making them even more powerful, I try to find ideas how to improve them without completely losing the quality over quantity theme. I do think, however, that twice the cost in res and pop for all units simply never really works out. So all units, no matter which one, being 2 pop instead of one is an issue in my book. It’s more of a curse than a blessing and a central concept of a civ should never be a curse.
Imperial Guards and Cataphracts are close to the power of Gilded Knights, but are cheaper and cost only one pop. That’s especially an issue for teamgames and FFA, but also for full pop 1v1 scenarios. The double cost for units is already quite a burden for OotD. And the fact that religion is very weak for OotD, although it played a big role for them, is another issue. Healing these OotD units is difficult and impossible before castle age. I think there should be some tweaks to synergize the greater power of units combined with greater costs by adding better prelate and healing mechanics.

So here are my ideas. I am not saying give them all of them, but I think even that might be just a matter of fine tuning, while giving the whole civ a much better flow. So maybe they could get all of them with some kind of trade off in order to balance out the civ nicely instead of having it either under- or overpowered. Let’s go:

  • Reduce villager production time from 24 sec to 22

  • Give OotD units an out of combat healing tech in Meinwerk

  • Allow Aachen to build cheaper (-50%) prelates, that take 100% longer to be built. Improve Aachen gather rate from 10 to 15%

  • Add a castle tech to reduce costs of units by 10-20%

  • Add an imperial tech to reduce pop cost for spears, maa, archers, horsemen and cbs to 1. In imp these units do not seem to be worth 2 pop. Archers are the only ones that appear to be convincing with their power. Premium units (knights, Landsknechte, handcannons) remain at 2 pop

  • Give them an imp tech to improve villager gather rate by 5 to 10% or something of that sort and/or give them some kind of trade benefit or passive eco tickle. Even if you get Regnitz with 3+ relics, it doesn’t seem to help much. And then there is nothing else, no cost reduction, no passive res, no free units, nothing. Hence my ideas to adress that

  • Give them marching drills in barracks, because their inf can get kited and sniped in a seemingly very easy fashion. Or add at least a new monastery tech that improves prelate movement speed, because these guys are just mere monks. Nothing unique about them for OotD aside from inspired warriors, which is, while more potent for OotD, even more tedious to use due to the 1.12 speed than for HRE

  • Add a tech that improves prelate healing power and/or speed to Regnitz

  • Improve the Burgrave effect. It’s underwhelming. 30% less cost is good, but 30% production speed becomes worse and worse the longer the game goes making the 30% less cost barely relevant

  • Add a global unit production speed bonus of 20% to Elzbach

  • Improve Meinwerk unique techs. The MAA tech could be 35-50% dmg reduction, since 20% is a bit poor and seems to do nothing really. And the crossbow tech could be 15 instead of 10 dmg, because the siege armor tech offsets this unique tech. Or change it to something else completely. I don’t know if the Landsknecht halberd tech is actually good. This is something I don’t want to rate yet

  • Improve the war horse tech, which is kinda meh. I don’t really see a point in the war horse tech, it’s very situational and not even really notable. Maybe the dmg reduction should linger for some seconds (5-10), if the charge was successful. I think that would be a good thing to make this tech actually useful

  • Maybe give inspired warriors some kind of mechanical buff for both HRE and OotD. It’s just not a very useful tech and hard to use reliably. Every other unit buff mechanic is soooo much easier to apply, instant and in an area of effect

  • Fix the known bugs like no attack animation for handcannons, MAA charging with axes for whatever reason and the problem that imperial gilded archers lose .5 range. Instead of 5.5 they have 5

  • Remove Fire Stations from OotD and HRE. It’s better to have no naval unique tech than this crap :clown_face:

HRE is the weakest old civ right now and OotD the weakest new civ. Sad times for Holy Roman Enthusiasts.

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it seems Meinwork palace HRE does the quality of quantity concept better than OotD. extra armor on spearmen and horsemen, and knights is really good they just have to sacrifice some of their economy for it. Unless OotD gets a buff i see no reason for me to play them except for the memes I guess.

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I think the bonus 5% villager gather rate is being a bit underestimated. They also have the cart that give them +40% carry capacity. Late game they are a lot more pop efficient, so in late game its an actual 25% advantage and not 5% anymore.

I agree they probably need some buff in some areas. But usually it’s a lot better to play it safe and buff gradually.

Things I would change:

  • -Meinwerk don’t need new upgrades but they should imrpove the golden cuirrass.

  • -Aachen should be allowed to train prelate from age 2, no need to be cheaper as this is already an advantage to be able to build 1 age in advance. Remember that dragon can’t make prelate before age 3. OR Aachen aura should be larger than HRE aura because 10% is a lot less. This would also fit the concept that Dragon is more a beginner civ, larger aura requires less planning.

  • -Improving war horse tech i agree, just make the % higher. And Golden Cuirass too.

  • -Since prelate cant inspire villager. I would love if Dragon get a better bonus than HRE for inspiring military units.

  • -Bugs I expect will be fixed for sure.

Stuff that don’t need be changed:

  • -Keep villager producing time at 24 sec as 22 sec would be a huge change

  • -No need to reduce cost of units. NO

  • -Reducing pop of units would be absolutely broken late game so NO.

  • -Marching drills would overshadow HRE and i like that they are different so also NO.

  • -Burgrave and Regnizt are fine. I don’t think they need a change, but if they do i think they should just rework regnizt bonus to differentiate it from regular HRE instead of giving same bonus. Giving an ADDITIONAL bonus on top would make HRE seem regnizt seem bad.

  • -Elzbach is fine, again dont make everything better than HRE.

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It sounds better than it is. Because what you are not accounting for is that all the other civs develop eco boni of various sorts in the course of the game. From 15-25% gather rate, better drop off, free res, free units, cost reductions etc pp. With that in mind, the OotD is not at all more pop efficient. They need somewhat the same amount of pop. Their bonus is really not good. And it shows in the games. The OotD bonus does not really translate into the eco. They always gather less than the opponent.

The crossbow tech is not worth it in its current state. We agree on the golden cuirass. And the Landsknecht tech didn’t appear to be all that good so far, but it looks fancy. I don’t know about this one.

I am also on board if it just gets a normal prelate production. I just wanted to spice it up a little, so it’s not that plain. And the 10% from Aachen is not only a lot less, it’s actually almost irrelevant. Corvinus said he tested it on a fully saturated 48 farms Aachen eco and the food gain was around 100-125 food per minute. That’s nothing and it appears that the 10% are multiplicative on top of the 1.25, not additive. That would explain why it is so exceptionally weak.

Higher % for golden cuirass a clear yes. But the war horse tech seems to be just meh if it is only applied during a charge. It makes such little difference and only really helps against spear brace, but that would be very underwhelming to get the tech for that. Sure they take less dmg during charge when shot at, but it’s still such a niche thing. That’s why I think the dmg reduction should remain for 5 to 10 seconds, if the charge was successful and not braced. That would make it a good tech.

Yes!

It would be a significant change. But more in the sense of allowing the eco bonus to be actually an eco bonus instead of barely relevant. Without a production time reduction, there would have to be a gather rate increase. Otherwise the bonus is mathematically almost no bonus until you reach your desired vil count. Also losing villagers hurts OotD more than any other civ and they are not unkillable. Ayyubids Golden Age 3 reduces all production time by 20% and lvl 3 is not that hard to get. They build villagers in 17 seconds. How is OotD supposed to keep up with mechanics like this? And don’t get me started on the Zhu Xi eco. That one is crazy good.

Either a reduction in cost (pop/res) or a buff in stats. Because right now it just doesn’t work out. Overkilling is not really a big deal against OotD like it is against any other civ. You can get so much value out of sniping and kiting OotD units that their costs are not justified. They cost twice as much in pop and res, but are far from twice as good than other units. The core concept of OotD is flawed. The only unit that seems to be well designed in that regard is the gilded archer, but that’s it. If OotD is supposed to compete in lategame, some changes need to be made. Why would you ever >want< to waste 2 pop on a spearman or MAA etc in lategame, if those units barely justify their costs? And then there are teamgames and FFAs. Imo the whole 2 pop per unit as it is right now is a significant own goal and not a particular power. It’s a limitation more than a display of might. And definitely in lategame. I suggested how to make that better, but it’s just a suggestion. Something needs to be changed or else OotD will never be a viable civ regarding all the aspects of the game.

Somewhat yes, but also no. Look at JDA. That’s a full French civ with almost no down sides but a dota hero that has significant buffs. The only things that JDA lacks is cheaper eco buildings, villager production speed and the Keep cost reduction. And all these things get somewhat offset by Jeanne.

Also: Having expensive units that cannot be massed to overwhelm will just be victims to kiting and sniping. If the OotD melee inf is ever going to be in a good spot, they need to get something else. Maybe let Marching drills apply only to melee inf and prelates. That would be a difference to HRE. But in my opinion HRE also needs some new stuff, so that’s where differences could still be possible.

Fair enough in regards of Regnitz, but keep in mind that prelates are still a unique unit for OotD, but they are more or less just normal monks. There is nothing really special about them. Regarding Burgrave: 30% reduced production is so little. Japanese and Xhu Zi can casually make little HRE Burgraves several times with Yorishiro relics and supervision. If Burgrave is ever supposed to scale into lategame, it needs to be improved. Same for HRE. Burgrave for HRE is just an all-in mechanic with the upside of getting researches quicker. Once you have a bunch of barracks, this landmark is useless.

As I said. HRE is not in a good spot. They need help as well. It’s already kinda lame that some landmarks are just equal between HRE and OotD and neither HRE nor OotD has innate production boni. They both have the slowest production in the game. And Elzbach might not be a bad landmark, but it’s pretty crappy compared to Berkshire or Red Palace. It’s not a deterrence and only helps to withstand sieges a bit longer. That’s all it got. This would be good, if other landmarks wouldn’t be so much better. Spaskaya got a stone wall addition, Berkshire was made insane, Red Palace got a crazy buff to apply arbalest to all keeps and tc. Elzbach didn’t get anything since release. And Swabia is chosen anyway in at least 80% of the matches. Zhu Xi can make buildings receive 33% less dmg by supervision, Byzantines can cistern defensive structures, Japanese can make wonders into hp monsters. The unique selling proposition of Elzbach has gone down the drain. The 20% production bonus could also be given to HRE, they can use it. Or give Elzbach something else. It’s a good landmark when looked at without horizon, but not so much in comparison.

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In my opinion, if we are to buff Order of the Dragon, their military should be buffed somehow, because powerful units is what makes this civ fun.

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I see the problem that the units might be too strong in feudal then. I get your point, completely. But how to do it wiithout breaking something else? Allow the unit upgrades to simply be more powerful? Maybe that would be a way. And then there is still the issue of outmassing a smaller army and attacking from various fronts will always be a big hassle for OotD. And how to adress the overkill issue? The reduction in pop cost was just an idea to adress that in order to not have absolute monster units. But if pop is supposed to stay at 2 for all units, these units do need better stats. And melee inf definitely needs more speed. Them being so slow is a huge downside to a 2 pop per unit mechanic.

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What i don’t like about your suggestion of faster vill, is that Order of dragon is NOT supposed to be an eco civ.

They already have +25% and 40% carry capacity and need to build less farm and military building.

Their strengths isn’t in their eco but in how strong and durable their units are and o think late game they will have huge advantage because villagers are more pop efficient.

That’s why im saying ideally the dev should start with softer changes and see how the meta evolves.

That’s why increasing range of archen would make the 10% more interesting and also more beginner friendly.

Also those useless tech can be boosted.

And finally i would make inspiration on military better than hre.

The point of these changes isn’t to make them stronger, but just to make uninteresting choices more interesting and differentiate better from regular hre.

But otherwise i don’t think they need changes on eco before we see more stats.

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I understand what you mean. But as far as I can tell, the whole concept of the civ is just not working out. They are not supposed to be an eco civ, but consist of pure nobility? All their units are rich men. Where is the wealth coming from if the eco is rather plain? I think that this is an imbalance in the civ’s identity. All in all I feel like the whole concept is still in beta. You are right, however, that we do not have a lot of stats. But since OotD is really undercomplex/simple, all the ways they can be played have been exhausted already. Like I said we’ve seen FC, extended feudal, 2 TC, agressive play, defensive play and nothing looked really convincing. They do really badly against the other new civs and I fear they will get smashed by the old ones, who are so much more stream lined. If you are a smoker, you can easily smoke a cigarette while building up your eco, because your eco is so slow. I have watched many pros and I especially checked the VoDs for OotD matches. And I have seen nothing that makes me feel good about this civ. It might be a me issue, but I don’t think so. They factually barely win a match. And if they do, they were just played so much better. Like ML vs Beasty in the showmatch. ML played out of his mind and Beasty made many mistakes as he said himself. Yet it took ML forever to beat him. ML killed more than 100 vils and still couldn’t break Beasty. ML lost I think around 15-18 vils altogether. And those players are the absolute cream of the crop in AoE 4.

I want to enjoy the OotD. But I don’t want to wait for a plethora of patches. 4-6 months from now, OotD is hopefully in a good spot. But I suffered through release HRE already that was just a bug fest and barely playable for months. I don’t want that anymore.

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They keep the cash for themselves, they don’t give it to the nation or “order”.

I think some boost to military units or better unique techs, would be better than eco boost if the civ need buff.

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Well… They joined the Order because they had a mutual goal: Beating the Ottomans. If they wanted to keep their wealth for themselves, they would not have joined. Those were different times. And capitalism was born from the exploration and exploitation of the Americas and the pressing of gold dublones. And I honestly think Ottomans will completely destroy them in every aspect of the game. But yes… That remains to be seen, since the game has not been released yet. 18 more hours to go. And yet it has become somewhat common sense already that OotD is the worst of the new civs.

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Yes lets see.

But i think the real issue will be Zhu xi that is completely overpowered and hopfully they nerf it.

I think OotD will be quite good especially at gold-diamond rank. Maybe it will be a bit less good at conqueror.

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Yes, we’ll see. But one more thing: Gold and platinum is not a good metric to balance a civ. If it were, English would have been nerfed into the ground a long time ago. So being good at low level is not a good fit for a civ, if that doesn’t translate somewhat into higher leagues. And it really remains to be seen if this civ is such a “noob killer”. Sure, they have stronger units. But if you can’t protect your villagers, you won’t be able to build those units. I am really curious if they really are the proclaimed cognitive overload simplistic easy civ… I hope not. There are enough easy civs in the game already. How easy is it supposed to get?

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English is below 50% at plat

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I think the game is quite well balanced for all levels at the moment (pre-dlc).

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I was more referring to the complaints from low leaguers (no disrespect) that they meet way too many English players. And as you can see, the English pick rate is the highest of them all. That is because it is so beginner friendly. The win rate is not astounding, but the pick rate is very high. In gold and silver it is even higher. Much higher. And look at HRE in conq. Max sadness.

The balance of the pre-DLC is rather good, but there are still big differences. Rus is considered to be S tier, HRE more or less D tier. The civs are close and yet there are some gaping differences.

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I think the game should be well balanced at all levels as much as possible.

Some civs are only good/bad for the top players, but if you just look at normal conqueror 1-2 levels there is a huge difference of which civ are good.

For example Rus and China are quite bad at platinum to conqueror level, and ottoman is dominating, but for the top 100 players suddently rus and china go up so much but ottoman is at the bottom.

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Yes HRE could be buffed a bit, i think.
I don’t think it should be a huge economic advantage.
But maybe just make some of their unique tech or unique units, or landmarks slightly better (not the archen or regnizt) ,

buffing meinwork and burgrave would be good though as it would make HRE less predictable… Which i think is the main issue of HRE (being predictable) at high level.

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Stats are a nice way to form an opinion, but there is more to it imo. Like how deep is a civ, how many mechanics and options does it provide, how refined is it altogether and how limited or rich in versatility compared to other civs. Pros can get the max out of civs that’s why they are more or less the best denominator in regards of the strength of civs, but that still doesn’t say how well a civ is designed. HRE for example has only one real power and that is Aachen eco. Without that no pro would ever touch them in a competitive surrounding. Ever. But does Aachen mean that HRE is a well designed civ? Not really. So yeah, stats are important, but also not the holy grail when it comes to balancing and designing civs.

I gotta go to bed now. Was nice talking to you. See you later. Good night :slight_smile:

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They do have 25% bonus gather rate, but they also train 20% slower. I agree with him in that this is too big of a nerf in villager production speed, at least for what they grant - it ends up with them having one of the worst ecos in the game right now. Bringing them down closer to regular vill training time imo would be reasonable.

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Its still a net +5%. And probably a bit more because extra carry capacity is over 25%. I don’t know why they would need to be anything above that, as their strength isn’t really in their villager eco. It’s a “fake bonus” sure i agree with that, but the question is if they need a bonus at all.

They already have that 5% on EVERYTHING + they need less military production building + they need less farm + in late game their villagers are more pop efficient.

It’s not a HUGE eco bonus compared to other civs, but they are not supposed to be designed as a “Eco civ” in my opinion. They are more a military civ.

There are so many advantage of having stronger units, like when you lose 50% of the HP you don’t get 50% of the damage (which would be the case if the unit was split into 2 units). Also melee units can all attack while for other civs they will probably all circle around the battle trying to reach a unit to attack. Since they are bigger /merged, its also much easier to inspire or heal with prelates. So more % of your army will be inspired. It’s also much easier to micro and retreat with units. Their units are also better for raids. They won’t die as easily to mangonel…

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The problem is their units are so expensive that they aren’t that great of a military civ for the most part.

5-10% extra gather bonus is extremely paltry of a bonus when you compare it to civs like Rus, Zhu Xi, China, French, HRE, Abbasids, Ayyubids, Mali. The only civs this competes with for eco bonus is maybe English farms (probably worse), Mongols are indirectly better because free units, same with Ottomans.

Heck Abbasids get +15% on everything from early dark age and that doesn’t seem OP at all. OOTD are just really lacking at the moment and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the weakest civ in the game.

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