If Japan is balanced

Then why does Poseidon have only a 36% win rate against Tsukuyomi? They’re both cavalry-focused civs, right? So why is the matchup so massively one-sided at 1500+ ELO and above? Surely they should have rouglhy a 45 to 55% win rate. These aren’t weak players — people at that level understand the game and know how to play their civs properly. So either Poseidon players collectively forgot how to play, or Tsukuyomi has a very forgiving, low-risk advantage that’s still clearly present even six months after release.

I only started playing in November, but looking at the data this doesn’t feel like normal matchup variance — it looks like one civ simply has too many advantages stacked in its favor against another that’s supposed to occupy a similar design space. And it’s not just Poseidon either — the same pattern shows up across Japanese pantheons versus Greeks overall. So what exactly is it about Japan that makes Greeks struggle this much? Greeks are supposed to rely on strong core units and early hero advantages, which theoretically should give them leverage in these matchups, yet that doesn’t seem to translate into actual results.

At a certain point it starts to feel like Japan’s design overlaps with — or even invalidates — the intended Greek identity. If one faction can do everything Greeks are meant to do, but with more flexibility and fewer downsides, then why would players pick Greeks at all?

What worries me more is that this has been visible for months without meaningful adjustments, especially with another release coming soon. Is the expectation that players need to buy the latest DLC to stay competitive on ladder while balance changes take months or years? And on a separate note, how is Ra still in such a poor state? Concerns about Ra were raised over a year ago, yet it still feels like the weakest Egyptian god.

Japan needs clearer, obvious weaknesses that prevent it from being strong at every stage of the game. When you have 6.3+ speed raiding cavalry that can even counter Poseidon’s cavalry through tech options — like Naginata Riders getting a 1.25x damage multiplier against cavalry on top of Way of the Moon — it starts to feel like meaningful tradeoffs are being removed. Naginata Riders essentially have near-identical stats to Hippeus, only losing 1 hack damage, but gaining superior mobility and scaling. That level of efficiency on such a fast unit makes the matchup feel fundamentally skewed rather than strategically interesting.

Right now it genuinely feels like Japan has all the tools without equivalent downsides, which pushes players away from Greeks instead of encouraging diverse faction choices. The supposed drawback — starting with one fewer villager than Greeks — doesn’t meaningfully offset the mid- and late-game power spikes Japan receives. Yes, early raiding is theoretically an advantage for Greeks, but against a competent Japanese player who understands the matchup, it’s relatively easy to mitigate and doesn’t compensate for Japan’s overall flexibility and scaling.

Even when looking at god powers, the disparity becomes noticeable. Zeus has Lightning Storm as a major late-game swing, but the other Greek gods lack comparable army-deleting options — and Earthquake, while strong against structures, doesn’t decide fights in the same way. Meanwhile, Japanese pantheons commonly access extremely impactful powers such as Dragon Typhoon, and they also gain tools like deployable indestructible objects that reduce or refresh god power impact, which can feel oppressive in late-game scenarios like Swampland. I understand that powers like Plenty Vault are strong especially whenyou can stabilise, but Japan’s late-game toolkit still feels superior overall due to far too many timing attack pushes at all points in the game. As the Greeks the whole game can literally feel like your fighting for your life and no matter how well you play, you can just lose everything far too easily even if making good decisions. If Japanese player starts losing? Dont worry they have a million power spikes throughout the game to refer to.

Additionally, Japan’s favour generation combined with extremely fast, Hippeus-level Naginata Riders gives them strong early map control, which snowballs into mid- and late-game advantages. Altogether, it feels less like a strategic matchup and more like one faction having overlapping strengths without sufficient tradeoffs. Pretty sure Greek favour generation heavily falls off with the more praying. Yet with Japanese it doesnt scale down with more Mikos, Likewise with atlantians too but thats a seperate point.

How can a Bushido Tier 3 Naginata Rider, with just a +10% HP tech, trade evenly with a Hoplite — a unit that’s literally supposed to counter cavalry? Aren’t counters meant to actually counter? Instead, you get a unit with 6+ speed, mobility advantages, and scaling damage that ends up outperforming Greek cavalry as well. Good luck ever using Prodromos in a matchup against Japan. At that point, it starts to feel like they can just spam two core units, add a Shogun and a few Daimyo, and roll through the game. And this is supposed to be the “complicated” civ to play? When a cavalry unit can effectively neutralise its intended counter, something about the design clearly isn’t working as intended.—- Japan is just good at everything that the Greeks does and some more. Might need to buff Greek hoplites im afraid or nerf nagita riders.

Posidon doesnt even have access to Athenas shield or Restoration. and yet its cavalary are not very good against a cavalary god that is Japan. A joke! The November patch notes for Japan were effectively nerfing damage outputs while buffing survivavibility. Thgat’s not a nerf. That’s just tweaking without trade offs.

I defeat Tsukuyomi with Prodormus, playing as Hades, without bonuses to cavalry.

I know theres no level of answer that could calm such rant, but with demeter coming out theres hopes a balance patch comes with it.

That said, as strong as japan is, at the level you refer to be playing at whats keeping you from winning its not the gods that are being picked. Its easier to shift blame onto something else, and in some cases like this one you are half way justified since its no hidden detail that tsukuyomi is very strong right now. the other half is the mistakes you make into the game. Match up balance as a decider factor matters really only at the top levels, all else mistkes and player skill account of vast differences in how the game goes.

Dunno how you always come to this conclusion, the civs do work very different, the only thing they have in common really is the baseline gather rate of the villagers, after that al mechanics are different. Building variety, unit variety it difers quite heavily.

Patches came faster before the december vacation. Its a shame this is the only part of the game you know since you entered recently but its not the dooming way you put it of it taking years.

Why is you comparison only with japan then? China has them, Eggy has them, 2/4 Norse has them, 2/3 atty has them (used to rather). It seems an overfixation on japan.

Vault of plenty ring a bell?

Funny enough greek late game is still beating japan for the most part, the struggle as you mention is managing to get there with how strong their powerspike is.

Current favor gathering seems high on japan, that i agree. But dont let the rage impair the dynamic that shirnes are an investment, and you can take them down or hunt down miko, wiilar to oracles, which is why their favor income is different. Similar how to eggy that has very easy to defend monuments has less income than civs that have to risk more to get theirs going.

They dont. Its quite easy to forget how to account for unit stats and costs and to look only at the scenario that skwess to what you want to show. But no upgrade in game allows naginata rider to trade even with hoplite. Its simply not the case unless they are severely over upgrades in comparison.

You logic is like saying hypaspist dont counter samurai because they loose a 1 vs 1. Cost of a unit is also something that matters a lot.

Good thing it doesnt. It doesnt win against podromos either. Not making the case greek has an easy time with japan, but to clarify that i understand you might be tilted about the match up but the reasons you are giving are not correct.

Naginata Riders + Yumi Archers do trade well with hoplites and Peletsts especially with how Way of the Moon is tructured. ‘Saves 10 resources’ oh you’re are MISSING THE POINT!!! Resources isnt always EVERYTHING. especially when you’re talking incredbily small variances. Again you MISSED THE POINT. How does Posidon a cavalary pantheon have such a POOR average win rate against Japan after all this time.

I told you in my previous answer its the NUMEROUS timing attack pushes and overall visual and chaotic movements that Japan creates. You need plenty vault for 2.5 mins for it to be even well worthwhile all the while Tsyukomyi has aged up and doing a further push for the 10th time. You ever heard of them refreshing swamplinand the third trime that game?

I’m afraid you jsut dont understand and there’s a reason why the win rates for Greeks against Japan is simply not that great. Japan just does everything the Greeks can do but better. Win rates at differening elo ranges against the Greeks alone proves the point. Japan has simply an easier time to win. You can make trash moves as Japan and still win. Greeks. Good luck, might just cost you the game.

Nerf Japan or the game is simply imbalanced. 6 months btw of this. Idk why I bother buying this game ever sicne they added pantheons like this.

Why are top end players having SUCH a hard time with Japan. Thats the point. Why??? Whyu??? Its been out for months yet they’re still not very good at the game when your greek playing against the Japan. Or is it just that Japan simply has a mechanical structural advantage all throughout the game. Generalist at everything, but specialised at all.

It is thou. Its the reason why new moon is so strong. allowing to instantly get for free the armory upgrades for example is a huge positive leverage in resources spent. Bushido is good because getting line upgrades is also a net positive. You seem to be missing the concept that resource efficiency and leverage is one fo the most important concepts in RTS

Like i said, greek does struggle vs japan, japan is indeed strong and its very deserving of nerfs, no one is arguing that way from you, but im also aware you are not playing at a level where the god you pick is the sole match deciding factor. You can rant and complain all you want or you can put the effort in learning what to do better, the choice is yours and yours alone.

Greek matchups against Japan feel massively skewed right now. You can make a lot of correct decisions and still lose because Japan simply has more ways to recover and more tempo tools throughout the game. It’s not just one unit or one mechanic — it’s the overall design layering: Amaterasu’s Bushido scaling can rival or surpass something like Vault of Erebus, while Way of the Moon continuously builds tempo and damage as the game progresses.

The issue isn’t that Greeks are unplayable or that Japan is unbeatable — it’s that Japan has too many overlapping advantages with too few real tradeoffs. They maintain similar economic pacing, strong mobility, scaling combat bonuses, and multiple power spikes that allow them to regain control even after losing momentum. That makes the matchup feel less about strategic counters and more about surviving an endless series of tempo swings.

Right now it feels like Japan compresses roles that Greeks are supposed to specialise in, but with more flexibility and forgiveness. When one faction has both comparable strengths and stronger recovery tools, the practical result is that the Greek player must play far cleaner for much longer just to stay even.

If new DLC designs continue adding flashy mechanics without clear weaknesses or tradeoffs, it risks pushing older pantheons out of relevance instead of expanding strategic diversity.

You’re effectively saying. Lets just make all the noobs play Japan, have a super easy time. Any sort of misplay does not get punished, and if you dont play Japan, then make sure you play to the highest level non stop and if you make a slight misplay, That’s it GG. In RTS you cannot make Japan be good at everything without real trade offs for that.

Not really, thats you head canon. I feel dumb repeating to you the same thing every message, japan is indeed strong, it indeed deserves nerfs. No, you are not loosing a 1200 game because you picked X god into Y god.

This type of mindset is hard to argue against since its so ingrained in you that you can shift blame into external things on to why you lost that just the thought of learning from mistakes is meaningless to you. Thats it then, continue the rant, lets hope the demeter patch fixes things for you, if not i guess its gonna be the same dynamic of ranting about it.


You consistently refuse to engage with the design argument and instead reduce everything to personal skill. That might be convenient, but it ignores the actual data being discussed. Average win rates — especially at higher ELO ranges — exist for a reason. Are you genuinely suggesting that 1800+ Greek players repeatedly losing into Japan are simply all bad at the game?

Because if that’s your position, then you’re not analysing balance — you’re dismissing statistics outright. But you like to mention Way of The Moon maths FOR SOME REASON on pop for pop count. So why do you FAIL to achknowledge win rates, yet are lazer focused on pure math for math trades, rather then how actual games play??? I started the post as clear as day ‘‘ Then why does Poseidon have only a 36% win rate against Tsukuyomi? They’re both cavalry-focused civs, right? So why is the matchup so massively one-sided at 1500+ ELO and above? Surely they should have rouglhy a 45 to 55% win rate.’ But you miss the point every time. I would like you to stop engaging quite frankly because I dont’ think you understand anything about the game in my opinion.

Changing sample sizes doesn’t change the outcome: Greek matchups against Japan continue to struggle months after release and multiple adjustments. That is the core point. Not individual anecdotes, not “I won with X unit once,” and not repeated claims that players just need to learn from mistakes.

You keep circling back to “it’s your fault” without addressing the underlying design question:

Why do Greek matchups consistently underperform against Japan across different ELO brackets and over time?

Until you engage with that question instead of defaulting to skill-blame, we’re not actually having the same discussion. You too often deflect to weaker points in my general post. Again. I will say it the hundredth time for you clearly… Why do high-level greek players play SO BADLY against Japan. Or is it the fact Japan has too many generalist advantages without clear weaknesses.


It’s impossible to explain to this guy the problem when your opponent makes stupid mistakes like a complete noob and still wins because of the right god choice. Welcome to the forum. But Tsukuyomi’s strength isn’t his cavalry, but his tengu combined with the Shogun. That’s his real problem.

The same theme is generally never just one specific thing. Its just Japan is good at too many areas and does need reigning in.. I’ll need to reinstall the game but does Tsyukmyi still have his 33% faster advance time? Again why doesnt Ra have something like that??? Through the empowerment. Seriously speaking…

In World of Warcraft, one thing the devs would do is they get rid of something that made the game fun on purpose. Then next expansion announce it as some new feature when it was already in the game. This would keep players on the hook. The snenisble players would just drop out all together once they realise they’re almost like on a fishing line.

How? You are right that japan (tsuku specially) is overtunned. What is there to discuss in that aspect?

I dont, i have said greek struggles vs them time and time again, you are so focued on your rant you dont read what i write.

Its not only because of the calv. The multiplier helps but its mostly how effective swampland can be, the insane powerspike with new moon on heroic and the interaction of horse archers and tengu.

I think you are just incapable of conceding something, its quite odd actually.

No, i keep circling back to “theres better things to do if you want to improve than rant about it” or make repetitive posts on the same topic when people dont jump to agree with you.

The one thing i have kept saying you are right on? Like its clear you are affected by the topic and invested in it, but also seem blinded to other pov´s

Says the guy that got proven wrong so much he now refuses to engage in educational matches to learn from mistakes

Tsukuyomi is too strong because New Moon is broken.

Compared to other archaic age godpowers like spy, lure or something else, new moon would be one of the best heroic age godpowers aswell.

Tsukuyomi has the most terryfing fast heroic 1/2 TC with shogun, swampland, new moon on armory, horse archers, tengu.

Tengu ans Shogun are fairly balanced now, the problem is more likely new moon on the armory, horse archers’ tech should be moved from armory to stable I guess.

But New moon is a broken concept as a whole, New moon in mythic age with the free recast on fortress or amory through Sacred Gate is disgustingly broken, more than the first heroic age New Moon, so many opportunities to reverse the situation in your favor when you cast this broken thing once again.

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What are you talking about?