Well, maybe new inca become one of those bad civs after the patch
Literaly the same you can tell about their Range. Heck, even one UT is for Barracks and second for Range.
Many of you need to review stats 101. You cannot reasonably predict the balance effects using the time-indexed win rates due to the confounding effect present in extremely heavy feudal pressure. Aoestats time-indexed win rates can only reasonably be used to judge changes at the margin: extra units due to a cost discount, extra villagers due to saving an extra villager every 10 times youâre raided, a small extra start bonus, etc.
Changes which dramatically alter the dynamics of a game, e.g. the choice to go heavy feudal, bias the results at different points. So much so in this case that itâs very hard to take seriously any argument using it as justification.
Like MatCauthon3 said:
Even aggregated win-rates are biased because it becomes hard to separate out the civ itself from the trush. I.e. is the aggregated win-rate a reflection of the civ itself or a reflection of the best a trush can be expected to perform?
Gotta be careful when using stats as justification for an argument.
2 Likes
Well for the OP is not necessary to make those stats, simple rts rules, you canât beat playing mirror such strategy with other civs, the counter takes more time while you are taking damage and losing map control, such strategy is bad for the game, you can mirror a hoang with any civ but you canât mirror an inca rush, there lies the big difference.
4 Likes
So youâre telling me that not only Iâm right but then remind me they have a UT that further boosts two of their infantry units? If this isnât an infantry civ then what isnât 11
1 Like
If this is enough to be Infantry Civ, they literaly can be also described as Archer Civ, without ANY Change - FU Range, Archer UU, UT boosting Archers. Technicaly, they have TWO UT for archers, and only ONE for Infantry, because Fabric Shields affects also Slingers.
And Lets compare Incas to other Infantry Civs:
- Aztecs - faster training time, additional gold for the start helping with Drush, great farmers (this is great for Cav, but helps Infantry too, and Aztecs dont have Cav), Infantry anti-Infantry UU, great UT
- Bulgarians - Free Militia upgrades, great UT for them, faster Blacksmith
- Celts - faster all Infantry, great UU
- Goths - Should I say anything?
- Japanese - faster attacing FU Infantry (best in the game), great UU
- Malians - anti-Archer Infantry, very good UU, and cheaper Barracks
- Malay - the cheapest Militia-line in the game with UT, most spamable UU
- Sicilians - Infantry with bonus damage reduction, tanky, easy accesable UU with ability to self-replicate (sort of), UT for it.
- Slavs - free Supplies, great farmers, amazing UT
- Teutons - free armor on all Infantry, Very Srong UU (Stat-wise), UT affecting Infantry.
- Vikings - Infantry with more health, great UU, two UT for Infantry.
We should also mentioned Burmese, with their FU Inf and free +3 ATK, and even Franks, with their FU Infantry, Inf UU, and UT for it.
So, in comparison to other Infantry Civs, Incas really dont have much for their Infantry. Maybe Malians, Malay and Celts are comprable, but they are focused also on other things (Malians on Cavalry with their UT, Malay on Navy, Celts on Siege). If we can describe Incas just âInfantryâ Civ, we can also describe Franks in this way, they literaly have comparable Barracks (FU Barracks? Check. Infantry UU? Check. Infantry UT? Check).
We should describe Incas as âInfantry and somethingâ Civ. Defensive, Archers, or even Towers. Not just âInfantryâ.
2 Likes
My personnal issues with your argument.
(no hate at all, just my own 2cent <3)
Incas Trush costs Inca a lot of idle time and ressources. You can spot the trush coming using your scout. You can wall yourself smartly. You know whatâs coming when you see the enemy is playing Inca and since itâs by far their best strat you canât be surprised if it happens to you.
In contrast the persian douche is already harder to handle because plenty of people play persian and donât go for that strat. So if you defend against it pre-emptively you put yourself at a disadvantage often enough.
Such an issue is much less relevent with Incas since if they donât Trush you and you prepared a defense for it, youâre still likely going to match them anyway.
Trush has counteplay and can be played around. Itâs a matter of learning how to defend against it.
Now I do agree I would rather have that strat be a bit less powerful in the hands of someone that doesnât necessarely know how to play all that well. So I would add some drawbacks that make the trush worse if youâre not doing it skillfully.
Maybe something like âInca Towers have -1 rangeâ or âInca Towers deal -1 damage to buildingsâ or âInca towers cost double the stone to repairâ (just ideas)
Can someone please explain what was nerfed exactly from the Incas?
I havenât played the game in a while and I am curious.
Main feudal age bonus is going to be removed: Blacksmith techs will not affect villagers in feudal age anymore. Itâs strength as a nerf is akin to removing letâs say the hunt bonus from Mongols.
1 Like
That makes very little sense though.
Whatâs the point of a speciality if any other civ can beat you at your specialty?
Would you remove the Goth flood just because no other civ can match a Goth flood by doing their own flood?
Would you remove the Teuton deathball just because no other civ has such a deathball?
And those two clearly have counters. The counter is just not the mirror strategy.
The most basic rts rule is precisely that you should never try to match a civ at what they do best because thatâs what they do best. By definition of best, noone else does it as well. Itâs about using another, different strategy that your own civ can do well that you fight it out.
1 Like
Goth/Teuton stuff is late-game, so at least every civ should have developed its own options to counter them. But feudal age is a time in the game where there is less room for civs to be different. And anyway since the best counter to towers are villagers and towers you have to answer enemy towers with your own and your villagers. But since in the case of the Incas they can get more towers and will win villager fights it becomes harder.
I donât get that at all.
Weâre aware of, and accept the fact that to beat certain civs you need to push early and stop them from reaching that endgame composition, especially in certain matchups.
Yet somehow itâs impossible to consider that you should delay the game and push into a later stage to handle others? Yes, itâs hard to fend off feudal pressure when the options are so few. Itâs also hard to kill in castle when the options are so few. What makes these two so different in the minds of the players and the devs that means this is just too far a bridge to cross?
2 Likes
Well then, enlighten us. What are you going to kill inca vills+towers with, if not vills and towers on your own? I am curiousâŠ
Delaying the pressure and/or mitigating damage until you hit Castle and sieging it back. Thereâs a lot of things you can do to slow down an Inca trush, and all you need to do is access knights and siege to blow it up.
If they mix in military to try to have more mobile raids, if they fail they are absolutely, 100% dead, stuck in feudal eternally. Itâs a better shout than letting someone get to castle for free but itâs a game winning/losing decision if the trush doesnât do the damage you need it to.
1 Like
But not every civ is good late game. Or at least not every civ is equally good.
(If everything is good then nothing is good. Beeing good is relative to something else beeing worse.)
Against some civs, the simplest example is portuguese on islands, you will want to play aggressive early or mid game because the longer the game drags for, the more powerful the portuguese relative to you.
The Incas work in a similar manner. Also answering @Temudschinn with this one.
Countering towers with your towers/your villagers is the standard answer. It is by no means the only answer. And it is the standard answer for good reason, donât get me wrong. It is the simplest to execute and the most cost efficient most of the time. As it happens, Incas are one of those rare times where it is not.
One way to defend is vision : either scout ahead the enemy base and track his vills or set the scout forward on the access path to one side of your base and place a forward outpost on the other side. Once you see it come from a far you can build your own tower to defend that side and keep the Inca far enough from your base/make them take some time to get to you. Meanwhile expand on the other side. It also gives you time to wall up.
Youâll notice you donât even need vision for this to work. Once you see you are against Incas you can simply start walling earlier, or placing an early barracks to make it harder for your enemy to tower. You can also play around a pre-emptively placed tower on one side of your base. You can also expand your base in multiple directions doing those strategies. the more space you take the more tower he will need.
In any case remember one thing : he is on a timer.
Your brain should switch to a âI need to find a window to click Castleâ mode.
The biggest mistake you can make is to forget he has idled his villagers so much and all you need to do is hold. People tilt very easily and that alos applies to your opposnent. Plenty of Inca Trush players have no idea how to play castle from behind.
The mental-game is a just another skill, like macro and micro. Practice it.
1 Like
Care to prove? Link pro games where an inca trush was stopped without any countertowers or vill fighting?
I mean, im not even saying that inca trush is OP (annoying, yes, but not OP), but the arrogance in this thread is amazing. People who arenât even close to beeing a good player know exactly how to stop a villrush and everyone who dies to it just has not yet learned the basics of RTS. Nevermind that players like the Viper stop villrushes by fighting with vills and towers on their own. He is washed up and knows nothing about the game.
Thats just what i mean. You said that we shouldnât mirror trushes with defensive towers. When asked what else to do, you respond âtowersâ as if i were an idiot.
1 Like
You shouldnât mirror by towering in front of their tower and then vill fighting.
You can choose to place a tower before the inca vills have even arrived simply to keep them off a gold and force the Inca to choose between having to waste time fighting your already placed tower or spending even more time walking (less time gathering ressources and more time for you to respond and build military as well as having given you safe access to a ressources under your own tower) for instance.
But note that this is just one of the answers. It depends on your map, your civ and your ressource placement. The other proposals do not require the tower.
Where in the world did I say âAnd donât build countertowers / fight off vills, itâs a waste of your time?â What about âdelaying pressure and/or mitigating damageâ wasnât clear?
Walling in towards your TC, means they wonât pass through (TCâs still slaughter Incan VIllagers) and drop a tower on the pressure side of the woodline youâve walled in, is an extremely simply method to slow down an Incan push dramatically, as they wonât be able to break through and drop further towers so long as youâve got cover on it. Any time they spend walking around your defenses to another angle is time youâve bought towards Castle age.
Having good resources is a massive plus, and if youâve got a very ill-placed gold, youâll have to abuse the market, but thatâs hardly a serious issue when your opponent is 5+ idles behind.
Thatâs a great write-up, @NoTime2Undrstd
Some people seem to think the Inca tower rush is mythical and unstoppable. Yet, if it was, everyone would pick Incas. But they donât. Incaâs have a low pick rate because of exactly what you said. Tower rushes are economically expensive and are reasonably defended against if you keep calm.
Taking this out of the game makes it less diverse and less interesting.
1 Like
UhmâŠyou litteraly answerd to my question
So i guess sorry for assuming you were proposing an alternative?
Again, i am not saying that Inca trush is OP. I am simply saying that a defense against it usually includes vills and towers, therefor âdont mirror themâ is a pretty garbage advice.