Include unique techs affecting unique units only in their elite upgrade

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

The last few years. We have noticed changes to unique techs like for vikings, persians, ethiopians and many others that used to be exclusive to unique units. These changes proved to be very well received and gave more to civ identity.

So, we should make unique techs not exclusive to unique units either by make them affects other units or replace them and include them in their elite upgrade.

Here’re the list of remaining techs that only affect unique units (excluding cost reduction techs):
stats:
byzantines: logistica for cataphracts (trample damage)
Franks: bearded axe (+1 range to axeman)

spawning:
Goths: anarky (huskarls spawn in barracks)
Huns: Maraunders (tarkans spawn in stables)

Again it won’t be free and it will be only include after researching elite upgrade in imperial.
Do you have any propositions?

Here’re my propositions:

Goths:
include in elite upgrade and replace +10 population space unique bonus to the unique tech or infantry occupy 0.9 pop space

Huns:
include in elite upgrade and Cavalry +1 or +2 damage to buildings.

Byzantines:
include in elite upgrade and siege around castles regenerate hp.
or
include in elite upgrade and stone cost reduction to towers

Franks:
include in elite upgrade and infantry regenerate hp

Bonus:
Portuguese
Carrack (+1/+1 armor to ships): (currenlty useful on water maps only):
(+1/+1 armor to ships and to bombard canons and/or hand canoneer

Mongols:
Nomads (destroyed houses dont decrease pop) and TC can be packed/unpacked (like in gaiseric compaign).
can add a new strategies. like moving base in team games

4 Likes
2

Honestly I think these are fine. Most of the UTs that only affected UUs that have been replaced either made slow UUs slightly faster (Mahouts and Panokseon), or doubled down on an existing strength in a way that didn’t re-define the utility of the unit (Berserkergang and old royal heirs).

I don’t think those UTs were bad simply because they only affected a UU, but it was also that those UTs while on paper improved the UU, did so in a way that didn’t really change the utility of the unit.

Logistica and Bearded Axe I wouldn’t say re-define those units, but are more useful than those other techs. Also neither franks or byzantines really need a buff.

Anarchy is critical to late game huskarl spam. Marauders…is fine. Not amazing but fine.

2 Likes
3

Byzantines with free Logistica would be pretty insane. Just imagine even the castle age version with free Logistica? It would be a nightmare for infantry civs to fight.

Franks are pretty strong as a civ already, and been one of the best civs in the game for ages. Getting free Bearded Axe and replacing with a new tech would be a bit of a power creep.

Goths getting free Anarchy would be insane. How are archer civ ever meant to fight Goths? Once it’s the castle age, and they make Huskarl, it’s over. Particularly for the Mayans this would be a nightmare. They would need to end the game in feudal, otherwise they pretty much doomed.

Huns are pretty strong. Not as strong as they were back in the day. But I guess they could get some changes. Not sure about getting free Maraunders, since their stables already work faster, and now they have a fast ram that can defend itself in melee.

1 Like
4

Again I said include it in elite upgrade which means in imperial after doing the upgrade (not free)

1 Like
5

Here’re my propositions:

Goths:
include in elite upgrade and replace +10 population space unique bonus to the unique tech or infantry occupy 0.9 pop space

Huns:
include in elite upgrade and Cavalry +1 or +2 damage to buildings.

Byzantines:
include in elite upgrade and siege around castles regenerate hp.
or
include in elite upgrade and stone cost reduction to towers

Franks:
include in elite upgrade and infantry regenerate hp

Bonus:
Portuguese
Carrack (+1/+1 armor to ships): (currenlty useful on water maps only):
(+1/+1 armor to ships and to bombard canons and/or hand canoneer

Mongols:
Nomads (destroyed houses dont decrease pop) and TC can be packed/unpacked (like in gaiseric compaign).
can add a new strategies. like moving base in team games

6

Having to research many techs to improve a single units discourage the player from using it. (a big exemple here is militia line units that require 4 more techs in general without counting unique techs than stable or archer units). while we see condotierro and hand cannoneers in games because they don’t require many techs. unique units are already requiring a castle which is already a big investment and adding more techs than the elite techs discourage players from using them and then the civ lose a big part of its identity.
I know you think franks or huns are in a good place but when was the last time you saw them played differently or using their unique units. it’s always the same strategy. Adding new unique techs is possible without impacting their strength by only adding techs that encourage them to play a different strategy one that was designed originally to the civs and that doesn’t reduce their weakness or enhances their strength

3 Likes
7

I’ll third this because Ornlu the Wolf will second this. 11

Jokes apart, other than Goths, Huns and Magyars, I agree. Anarchy and Marauder are fine. For Corvinian Army, I don’t really know what to do.

2 Likes
8

Some of these may be worth looking into, but my two cents is that absolute design dogmas should usually be avoided, e.g. “Every civ needs a direct eco bonus,” or “No UT should ever only affect the UU.” Variety is the spice of life. Mahouts was a barrier to entry for what was/is probably the least viable UU, so it made sense to do away with it. OTOH Royal Heirs is an example of an effect that’s definitely more interesting, but it seems almost misplaced and not particularly on-theme. That’s mostly what I fear would be the result of more such “interesting” changes - seemingly random effects that could be put to better use elsewhere.

So I prefer this only on an as-needed basis where both a civ and UU may be struggling, and there’s a clear and compelling thematic choice for the replacement. Rolling everything special about every unique unit into the Elite upgrade is as boring to me as UU-only techs may be to anyone else. If I wanted to make Bearded Axe more interesting, I might add a small effect like predictive firing for T-Axemen, +1 vs infantry, faster projectiles, or (reaching here) +5% work rate for lumberjacks. But I’m fine with it as-is, and it gives you the option to directly improve your T-Axemen in Castle Age if you’re investing heavily into them, without having to wait for Imp and the Elite upgrade. Or without replacing it with something arbitrary like HP regen for infantry that could turn Franks into a Cavalry-Infantry civ, rather than a Cavalry Civ with Throwing Axemen.

I’m all for making things more interesting generally, but some ways of doing that seem better than others.

4 Likes
9

I would be fine if it also gives knights trample damage (but maybe just 1 or 2 damage per attack).
Their Paladins could be more useful though people might still not use them.

Maybe not necessaey but one of the benefits of incorporating it into the elite upgrade is that we have an additional UT slot that can be used to “slow down” the knight’s enhancement.

For example, if the Bloodlines itself was moved globally to the Castle Age, then the cavalry HP bonus could be changed to free Bloodlines, the Chivalry could be moved to the Castle Age, and then the new Imperial UT (such like Gendarme) could give the cavalry +15 HP. As a result, the strength of their Scouts in the Feudal Age and Cavaliers in the early Imperial Age can be revised down.

Alternatively, the new Castle age UT could improve archers slightly, such as Francs-archers giving Archers +1 attack against archers. Because their archer technology is so lacking, even with such a UT and even giving them the Arbalester (this is a medieval French word) upgrade would not make their archers worth using heavily in the later stages.

They’re okay. They affect not only UUs but also Barracks/Stables.

If it were me I would have this UT be renamed to somthing like Maritime Exploration and give +1/+1 armor to not only the ships but also the UUs (either the Organ Guns or the new unit that replaces the Organ guns), and also allows Feitoria to fire bullets and to train gunpowder units as acceptable gimmicks.

I actually kind of question how often the TCs that have already been built need to be packed up and moved in the game.

Have Nomads affect all buildings that provide population space (TCs, Castles, and even other buildings if they have Slavs and Dravidians as allies), and have the Castles able to train the Packed TC Wagon at where the Nomads button is. Even if already built TCs cannot be packed, at least this will save villagers from having to stop gathering resources in order to build TCs.

let’s make it funny.
In addition to fighting, Axemen can also chop wood (at close range of course) and gather wood. Alternatively, have the Militia line and La Hire have a long charge bar that can throw an ax when fully charged.

A few years ago I proposed making MHs trainable in Stables instead of free of gold. Hussars that cost less food and MHs that additionally cost gold may allow players to make a choice based on their needs. But this was not supported at the time.

Maybe it could make not only MHs but also Hand Cannoneers cost 10 gold less? I don’t know.

10

Magyars don’t have Hand Cannon.

11

I think for Corvinan army they should include it in elite upgrade. so when we upgrade to elite in imperial age it become 80 food and create a new unique tech like cheaper and faster petard

12

Would it be broken when they get Hand Cannoneers?
If they could get Hand Cannoneers and have Black Army affect them, it would make sense.

13

Maybe not. But they don’t need it. If you want to give then gunpowder I’d suggest BBC as their siege department is quite bad.

14

Costing cheaper by 10 gold for Bombard Cannons looks too useless. 11

15

For some reason, the game is really averse to putting cost changes in direct unit upgrades. It would make so much sense, and I don’t know if it’s a technical impossibility or what, but if it were possible, it would allow for a ton of positive balancing; not just for UUs but for other units as well. So, sadly, I think we’re stuck with Corvinian Army as it stands. The tech is better than its old version, but Magyar Huszars deserve more.

16

Oh they need to be benefitted by UT as well? I think reducing MH cost by 10 gold is also hilarious. Why would anyone make them in late game when you have cheaper hussar?

17

I think Logistica is fine because it’s not just a simple stat bump like the removed UTs.
It gives a whole new ability to Cataphracts.

Bearded Axes does just bump up the stats though but the Franks are a really powerful civ already. They would have to be weakened in some way to be able to get a new UT.

Goths and Huns feel outdated.
Nowadays there are multiple civilisations that can just simply train a unique unit in a different building (that isn’t a ship or a Monk)
It doesn’t make much sense to make it part of the Elite upgrade though. No Elite upgrade has such a strange and massive side effect and also those technologies are available in the Castle Age, this change would delay them into Imperial.
The units should just simple be available in the Barracks/Stable from the beginning (maybe slightly reduced Castle Age stats to not be OP) but that means we need 2 new Castle unique units on top of new unique technologies for those civilisations.
Goths could really need a rework so they don’t have the totally out of place gunpowder units anymore (and no they do no symbolise them becoming Spain because Spain is in the game since 2000).

1 Like
18

For Byzantines, I’m now liking the idea of them getting Legionary. Then Logistica can also benefit them with extra attack vs infantry. I’d not give them the trample damage as it will be same as Slavs Druzhina. Since Byzantines already lacks Blast Furnace, I don’t think some extra attack will be bad. They need to lose Gambeson though.

19

I’m not sure if giving them Legionaries is a good idea because it cuts into the Cataphracts uniqueness since they are both anti Infantry units.

1 Like
20

That’s true. Maybe Legionary shouldn’t have the anti-infantry bonus attack on base stat. They do feel very strong to me.