he meant they were similar overall strength. not strategy.
like saying Mayans and Aztecs have similar strength. the strength comes from separate areas, but both are Top tier civs.
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According to the stats, Vikings are significantly stronger on water maps, than Italians are.
Italians
Vikings
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i don’t consider any map in the current pool to be a true water map.
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True, but Bog Islands is very much a map where you do go for Navy, if you have a strong one.
yeah but i can attack your navy with non naval units quite easily.
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I wanted to say that Vikings and Italians have similar water strengths. And, since italians are bad on land while vikings are good, a vikings buff may not be a priority.
So these data confirm what I am saying. If Vikings are even stronger on water… well…
Edit: italians bad on land
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Vikings absolutely need no buffs. Berzerks are already better Champions, that also kill Cavalry and can regenerate.
To be quite frank, people just seem top want unnecessary change, perhaps because they became bored of the game, or too accustomed to monthly updates.
I want this game to stop updating so much, if I am honest, just to force a solid view of balance to actually manifest, instead of having constant change for no reason.
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Especially if buffs are for average civs. Or already good civs as Vikings
You should maintain the meta balance for tournaments (so be sure that aztecs are a similar power of chinese). But here we are in a good spot.
Then some very bad civs may need a small buff to go close to the average.
So free archer armors to italians is fine, University discount for Portuguese is fine. Giving back the old condos/organ guns is not fine. These civs should be good for casual players, not competing for the top 5…
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Berserker actually needs a nerf, it has no real weakness, they do kill arbalest with ease, they patrol more efficient than other melee units.
Vikings are still a top 5 civ, they have the best economy upgrades among all the civs, they are deadly in 1x1 ranged playstyle cause they will be up faster with stronger economy and they have full upgraded arbalest and rams.
So if the civ has the strongest boom it shouldn’t have an OP UU, but they already have 2(longboats and zeker), there was a lot of fan service back at the HD days, let me explain you, berseker is an anti trash unit, stronger than champions and average infantry UU’s, they were also good at killing crossbow giving his mobility and special patrol(they can patrol, insta attack and breaking in formations), so the only way to kill them was with heavy cavalry, hc or better UU’s, but now they do kill cavalry, they trade cost efficient vs PALADINS, that shouldn’t be happening, it is against the nature of a RTS game to have an unit with minimal weakness or counters with the standard units that all civs share.
The only weakness from vikings was PALADINS, chieftains should only be affecting champion and pike line so they would inflict almost the same damage as a halb, without actually giving them a halb with 80 HP, now you tell me why an unit should get more PA if they already kill, all trash in game, champion line and cavalry line, also they perform good enough if well handled vs arbalest(the natural killer of infantry line), i am waiting to see a rational response of justifying giving anything else to the unit.
See jaguar as reference, exceptionally good vs militia terrible vs arbalest and heavy cavalry, why don’t boost them instead?
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they are weak to archers. it only takes 15 arb shots to kill them. that isn’t hard to get too.
because Aztecs are a top 5 civ as well?
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Well, i dont see any reasons to buff the vikings, but its a great change in game i think
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You don’t get it, jaguar has 2 weakness, why zeker only one? and it is not really a great weakness, like i said decent players know how to patrol them and roll out arbalest.
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welcome to the community. disagree about buffing berserks but good to see a new face.
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aztecs have a better eco, military production, and overall military.
berserks help offset that.
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I wouldn’t mind losing chieftans since it wasn’t originally part of the game anyways in exchange for the pierce armor
And destroy the civ concept of infantry, lol no
Chieftain adress the main weakness against cavalry, and Berserks even still die against large groups of cavalry, let it as is please
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Vikings already have FU skirmishers, siege ram. Berserk is more like a cavalry/infantry counter with his high melee armor and hp regen, there have to be a counter at least…
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“almost the same damage as a halb” and “80hp” are both false.
Here’s some hard data:
Pikeman has 66 hp in Imp, (0/0 armor unupgraded)
Berserk has 61 hp in Castle,
Elite Berserk has 75 hp in Imp. (2/2 armor unupgraded)
---------------
>> Pike gets natural +22 attack vs cav, +18 vs camel, +11 vs mamluk, +25 vs war elephant
FU Pike: vs FU Paladin (5 mAr and 180 hp) = 8.33 dps or 7.2 hits
FU Pike with chieftains: vs FU Paladin (5mAr and 180 hp) = 10 dps or 6 hits
>> Elite Berserk gets no natural bonus except +3 vs eagles and +2 vs buildings)
FU Elite Zerk: vs FU Paladin (5mAr and 180 hp) = 6.5 dps or 13.85 hits
FU Elite Zerk with chieft:vs FU Paladin (5mAr and 180 hp) = 9 dps or 10 hits
DPS = ((attack + bonusAttack) - (mArmor + bonusArmor)) / rateOfFire
So what it comes down to is: in open battles – especially in castle age --, pike is superior to elite zerk vs Paladin or any other cav, especially vs camels, mameluke and elephants. They are cheaper, and you either need less of them or they do the job quicker. During raids and/or battles with ranged units involved, zerks are superior with regen, a bit more hp, building attack bonus and higher armor. Just like the Jaguar Warrior isn’t just a better Champ, Jag war is faster, has more melee armor, more hp, no attack delay and +11 against inf and +10 more against the condo. Which means it wrecks halbs/champs and inf uniques. Especially with Garland Wars.
What I’m saying is this: Stop trying to reduce civs to their UUs and learn to use UUs properly, as in: their intended role. Mix in skirms/rams/scorps/monks. Don’t just go full zerk. If you don’t, you don’t rly have a reason to complain about the zerks lack of PA.
The only thing we need is perhaps more hidden stats being made available for viewing in-game, so the roles of units are made more clear. (accuracy, armor classes, bonus damages, speed, los, aggro range, attack delay)
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Or just keep them as is instead of trying to achieve your fantasy all powerful unit
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so we gonna pretend the standard play isn’t flank players going xbows and arbs? Vikings are top flank civ with their eco; getting their xbow numbers, booming, earlym ballistics and thumb ring, armor, its all possible with Viking eco. Their snowball is very strong. Even late game Berserks are very viable in TGs
Because first Aztecs don’t really use normal infantry as a standard strategy and second Aztecs have Eagle warriors and 3 other military options that Vikings don’t. Plus the military production bonus which still is very good in late game
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