Mobility isn’t something to underestimate so easily.
Then how come Lithuanian Halbs aren’t broken? Since they both have the higher attack and the faster speed?
Again guys, you see black and white. They most likely are better than almost every civ halbs at defending (they don’t have higher attack?). And I never said i wanted the halbs to be broken and this proves that we can effectively see that giving them 10% more speed doesn’t make them broken as the Lithuanian halbs aren’t.
Cause this is one civ’s bonus, plus that one civ is missing the last armor for the halb, their unique tech only gives BACK +1 pierce armor so they are still having 1/1 less than FU halbs. And cause how their civ is balanced, it is ok for them specifically. It doesn’t mean it would be ok for everybody.
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Higher that the nerf you propose.
They do lack 1 point of each armor, but this downside is negligible according to your logic (that current halbs can’t touch cav “well enough”) And yet according to everyone else it does matter and they do much prefer genric FU halbs. Literally no one complain that halbs can’t counter cav. With your change, you’re nerfing them in the vast majority of cases, the situation where the defending player placed their pikes in a clever way, or mass battles. And getting some more hits once in a blue moon won’t make up for this.
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I didn’t know they lacked the last armor. They are cav civs and it isn’t for the balance of spear that they are missing that tech but for the balance of the whole infantry line and cav archer line. My proposal isn’t to remove any armor, but give a lower damage but making them faster.
Hmmm, how does lacking an infantry armor upgrade affects CA?
Oh, I also forgot Celts halbs are faster AND lack no armor. They still aren’t the absolute best halbs either.
Because you would have complete spear + cav + knights.
see so they are not broken and celts halbs are better than many halbs.
Well, Spanish, Persian and Cuman get full cav and spears and yet they aren’t OP. And what is this “cav” you mention? Knights are cav already so why the separation? Unless you meant “cav archer” and then Lithuanian don’t get FU Cav archers.
Well that is their bonus, making them faster for everyone and hence even faster for Celts and Liths will invalidate cavalry mobility and raiding potential
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how are they supposed to be protected against them then?
Walling areas and building castles, yes it takes resources but it’s less costly than losing 10-20 farmers and woodline lumberjacks
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In DE pathing is weird for cav / inf. That makes archers much stronger. I tend to go for archers almost every game. I feel like most players tend to go for archers in DE. On Voobly you saw many scouts and knights. On DE it is much more about archers and much less about infantry and cavarly. Making the spearmanline better against cavarly result in even less cavarly on the field. Against infantry and cavarly you can quickwall and secure your vills. You cant quickwall against archers. They just snipe your vills behind the quick walls.
So i really hope dev fix pathing for melee units so we will see more infantry and cavarly on the field. No need for increasing the movement speed of infantry.
Oh, and about your comment about Cataphracts: They are meant to counter infantry. So for sure they melt fully upgrade halbs. Halbs arent the counter unit for cataphracts. Do you really know which units is a counter to which unit?
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What is the point of this comment really? I am not even talking about archers. The pathing of melees affect both cav and infantry the same way. While, if you saw more scouts on voobly, it means that they are more viable than other units because they can’t be effectivly countered by their counter unit which results in the fact that the spearman line needs increase in its movement.
Illuminate me then. When i am an infatry civ, what option do i have against cataphracts.
The point of my comment? I read this thread for the first time and i wanna share my general opinion on the idea. Is posting my general opinion in this thread allowed? Did i need to ask your permission before posting? Please tell me what i do wrong…
You know we are here talking about DE not Voobly? Scouts were much more common on Voobly than now on DE. That happens because the melee pathing. You see less cav more archers. So i started over the archers. You wanna buff spearman line so cav is less viable. That means you will see even less cav. I dont think seeing less cav (and even more archers) is a good idea for the balance in the game. You dont want just one viable strategy (archers), but you want more different viable strategies. So i disagree with your suggestion of increased moving speed.
How to beat Cataphracts with an infantry civ? Know your own strenghts and weaknesses and know the strengths and weaknesses of the enemy. Your strategy is really dependend on the civ. You know fully upgraded cataphracts are pretty expensive. So try to win the game before the enemy have the eco to get the fully upgradad cataphracts. You dont want the enemy to hit imperial age quickly with a great eco. So you can go for extended feudal age rushes, an all in castle push, a fast imp push, … many different options depending on the map, your civ and how the game developed.
Stay in topic then. We aren’t talking about de’s current meta of archers.
You are taking for guaranteed that the pathing will never be fixed or that currently the scout isn’t good already which is not the case. Did you see me making this thread 3 months ago? The scouts rush is already a viable strategy. And i see more and more of them while people (you are thinking that i am referring to myself but this is presented by me seeing/playing team games) can’t defend properly against them because the infantry line that is supposed to protect against them is very slow. And the fact that voobly had this problem only accentuates my point.
That answer is a non answer. It doesn’t matter what maps are you or your civ, the halbs counter paladins.
You really dont read my posts, arent you?! You know things are connected. If you wanna nerf scout rushes, other strategies will become more used. In this case i think if you nerf scouts, you will see more archer rushes. Archers rushes are already more OP and for most civs a better strategy, because of the pathing of the scouts. You wanna nerf scout rushes, because they are too powerfull. My respons: They arent too powerfull. If they were, we would see them more often. Nowadays you see much more archers than what i would like. So i dont want a nerf to scout rushes. If they need anything they need fixed pathing, so scout rushes will be MORE common. I want more scout rushes into the game. Not less scout rushes. Also there was no problem at Voobly at all. So the situation of Voobly dont accentuates you got a point. You dont have any point.
Also scouts are meant to hit and run and snipe vills if they can. So it needs to be not too easy to defend. You know you can also quick wall? So scouts cant hit your vills at your wood line. Spears arnt the only way to defend against scouts.
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Again projecting. Did i say to nerf scout speed or make villagers super fast? They still can attack and snipe villagers but if they are too greedy, all of them are done for because the spearman will reach them relatively fast and they can’t escape with their speed only.
You see many archers rush, something i haven’t but we’ll take as true, and the counter that is simple.1 skirmisher can take down at least 2/3 archers.
You know not everybody is top player that can quick wall every position?
He isn’t projecting. He is stating the 100% logical fact that buffing the counter to a unit is an undirect nerf to that unit, and an undirect buff to units countered by this unit. If your change was indeed a buff to the spear line then this would happen.
It’s already how it works. Ever heard of positioning?
Normal walling works too. Ie if you see the scouts entering your base you have enough time to tell your villagers at the other side of your base to wall themselves before the scout come.
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It is not that it isn’t logical but it isn’t factual. Logically you would think that happens but that wouldn’t. Bad positioned villagers, weak villagers or exposed villagers will still be killed by scouts. The spearman will reach them, something they really can’t do currently ( they have, i repeat .5 more speed) if they try to be too aggressive against normal villagers. and normal villagers doesn’t mean the one farming directly under tc but also those, for example, farming in berries/near mills and finally then, the spearman will really be defending.
No, currently Scouts are too fast. If they aren’t directly under tc, they are unstoppable except for the currently known pathfinding issues and the unobeying command issue.
First not every map can be walled properly (meaning you might have to sacrifice your resource already giving an advantage to the enemy, second the berries line can’t be walled if your mill position is slightly off, same for gold/stone or even woods, third you need to have constant vision of your surrounding, something that is not guaranteed if you haven’t walled previously, fourth you economy is stalled too much in this constant walling because the chasing pikeman never reaches them, even if they attack. The enemy, even if he spent quite some food for the scouts has stalled you enough to gain back the lost time. You, on the other hand, spent on walling + some useless spearman that did protect their nearby but didn’t prevent the danger or the damage