So I have seen the trailer for the new Indian DLC. Dravidian, an infantry and naval civilization, got a unique ship, the Thirisadai. It is a warship that fires multiple projectiles, strong vs. warships.
Above: Screenshot from the DLC
What I noted is that the unit has inaccurate modeling, the current Thirisadai model is based on Borobudur ship of Borobudur temple. They are commonly assumed to have been used by Srivijayan (Malay) and Sailendran (Javanese) polity (Srivijaya and Medang/Mataram). Indian vessel does not usually use outrigger except for small dug-out canoes (and even this were copying Nusantaran ship that visited their coast). Also, the sail is a dead giveaway that the model is not an Indian ship: It used canted rectangular sails (Layar tanja/Tanja sail in Malay), which is a type of sail used in the Nusantara archipelago, while Indian ships used square sails.
Above: Malay User Interface in AOE 2, showing Borobudur ships.
There is more to it though: The Borobudur ship, while commonly associated with Srivijaya (a Malay kingdom), is actually can’t be positively tracked to that kingdom. The relief is only present in the Borobudur temple (8-9th century AD) which is a Sailendran (Javanese) kingdom heritage. Since no inscription that mentioned its name can be found, the ship cannot be tracked to any existing Srivijayan inscription that mentioned water vehicles.
Above: An Iranun warship of the Philippines, showing the canted rectangular sail / tanja sail, the most common type of sail in the Southeast Asian archipelago before the early modern era.
The reason people associate the ship with Srivijaya is that it is the only well-known pictorial evidence about a ship during the Srivijayan era (7th-13th century AD), and Srivijaya is commonly assumed to be a Thalassocracy. This is neglecting the fact that the Sailendran kingdom of Medang/Mataram (in Java) is also a maritime power during the same era, and also neglected the little-known fact about Srivijaya that was mostly a land-based polity before the 12th century AD.
Above: Borobudur ship replica in Singapore.
There is a common misconception that the Indians used triangular (lateen) sail, in reality, this type of sail only became popular after the coming of the Portuguese and Ottoman Turks in India after 1500 (it was used on their galley and got copied by the Indian and Arabs because of the ability to go against the wind, just like Tanja sail). The Indians and Arabs before the 1500s used square sails, or at least settee sail that looked somewhat triangular.
Above: An Indian ship in Fra Mauro’s map (ca. 1460)
Above: Arabs’ ship, it is unclear whether the sail represents a triangular lateen sail or settee sail, or just a square sail viewed from a bad angle.
As far as I know, there is no existing depiction of Thirisadai, but the devs could have modeled them using real Indian ships such as those from Ajanta Caves.
Above: An Indian ship, from Ajanta Caves, ca. 6th century AD
My personal suggestion (if it may be done), is that the current model of Thirisadai should be used for Malay ship UU (again, if that’s possible in the future).
Edit: There is an Indian scholar that thinks that the Borobudur ship was used by Indians. It is, however, an older argument, and has been refuted in recent research. While the architecture of the Borobudur temple is Indian in style, the ship is not.
Edit 2: So from the devs description the Thirisadai is a “massive vessel”, and quick googling resulted that they allegedly could carry 400 men. The thing is, the outrigger loses its effectiveness in a vessel larger than 10 m, because of lacking volume for buoyancy. The existing Borobudur ship replica, Spirit of Majapahit and Samudra Raksa, has their outrigger mostly above the waterline (which means almost no effect on stability), and even if they touched the water, I doubt they’re contributing to stability since they’re made of bamboos, not a hull with sufficient volume. So using a ship with outrigger for a reportedly massive vessel is not a good choice.
Edit 3: There is another depiction of an Indian ship, from Andhra coins (ca. 1st century AD)
Above: An Indian ship from Andhra coins, note that it also used square sail not canted rectangular or lateen sail.
[quote=“VenialFoil55155, post:1, topic:200917, full:true”]
So I have seen the trailer for the new Indian DLC. Dravidian, an infantry and naval civilization, got a unique ship, the Thirisadai. It is a warship that fires multiple projectiles, strong vs. warships.
Above: Screenshot from the DLC
What I noted is that the unit has inaccurate modeling, the current Thirisadai model is based on Borobudur ship of Borobudur temple. They are commonly assumed to have been used by Srivijayan (Malay) and Sailendran (Javanese) polity (Srivijaya and Medang/Mataram). Indian vessel does not usually use outrigger except for small dug-out canoes (and even this were copying Nusantaran ship that visited their coast). Also, the sail is a dead giveaway that the model is not an Indian ship: It used canted rectangular sails (Layar tanja/Tanja sail in Malay), which is a type of sail used in the Nusantara archipelago, while Indian ships used square sails.
Above: Malay User Interface in AOE 2, showing Borobudur ships.
There is more to it though: The Borobudur ship, while commonly associated with Srivijaya (a Malay kingdom), is actually can’t be positively tracked to that kingdom. The relief is only present in the Borobudur temple (8-9th century AD) which is a Sailendran (Javanese) kingdom heritage. Since no inscription that mentioned its name can be found, the ship cannot be tracked to any existing Srivijayan inscription that mentioned water vehicles.
Above: An Iranun warship of the Philippines, showing the canted rectangular sail / tanja sail, the most common type of sail in the Southeast Asian archipelago before the early modern era.
The reason people associate the ship with Srivijaya is that it is the only well-known pictorial evidence about a ship during the Srivijayan era (7th-13th century AD), and Srivijaya is commonly assumed to be a Thalassocracy. This is neglecting the fact that the Sailendran kingdom of Medang/Mataram (in Java) is also a maritime power during the same era, and also neglected the little-known fact about Srivijaya that was mostly a land-based polity before the 12th century AD.
Above: Borobudur ship replica in Singapore.
There is a common misconception that the Indians used triangular (lateen) sail, in reality, this type of sail only became popular after the coming of the Portuguese and Ottoman Turks in India after 1500 (it was used on their galley and got copied by the Indian and Arabs because of the ability to go against the wind, just like Tanja sail). The Indians and Arabs before the 1500s used square sails, or at least settee sail that looked somewhat triangular.
Above: An Indian ship in Fra Mauro’s map (ca. 1460)
Above: Arabs’ ship, it is unclear whether the sail represents a triangular lateen sail or settee sail, or just a square sail viewed from a bad angle.
As far as I know, there is no existing depiction of Thirisadai, but the devs could have modeled them using real Indian ships such as those from Ajanta Caves.
Above: An Indian ship, from Ajanta Caves, ca. 6th century AD
My personal suggestion (if it may be done), is that the current model of Thirisadai should be used for Malay ship UU (again, if that’s possible in the future).
Edit: There is an Indian scholar that thinks that the Borobudur ship was used by Indians. It is, however, an older argument, and has been refuted in recent research. While the architecture of the Borobudur temple is Indian in style, the ship is not.
Edit 2: So from the devs description the Thirisadai is a “massive vessel”, and quick googling resulted that they allegedly could carry 400 men. The thing is, the outrigger loses its effectiveness in a vessel larger than 10 m, because of lacking volume for buoyancy. The existing Borobudur ship replica, Spirit of Majapahit and Samudra Raksa, has their outrigger mostly above the waterline (which means almost no effect on stability), and even if they touched the water, I doubt they’re contributing to stability since they’re made of bamboos, not a hull with sufficient volume. So using a ship with outrigger for a reportedly massive vessel is not a good choice.
Edit 3: There is another depiction of an Indian ship, from Andhra coins (ca. 1st century AD)
Above: An Indian ship from Andhra coins, note that it also used square sail not canted rectangular or lateen sail.
Edit 4: Possible HOAX
So, the information about Thirisadai can be found in a Wikipedia section (and some less-trusted post on fa_____k and t____er). Some Redditors has criticized the reference used in the wikipedia section, and concluded that the section is made-up (or possibly has misattributed reference). No supporting reference can be found either. The original poster on Reddit suggested that the Thirisadai should be renamed to Marakkalam or Kalam, a name that has been attested to by multiple inscriptions in both India and Southeast Asia. Read the full critics of the Wikipedia section here: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/ucxaey/the_thirisadai_an_ahistorical_age_of_empires_ii/