Poland has an insane food gathering rate; in long matches like FFAs, team games, and treaty games, it becomes an economically unstoppable civ you don’t even need gold gathering cards.
A civilization only needs to harvest a single resource to become self-sustaining forever.
The Poland food-for-gold trade should be removed, and the Agrarian Reform card needs to be nerfed to 25% or 20%.
Forcing Poland to use the Gold cards prevents it from adding more Native or Fort cards to the deck,in addition to making Poland’s economy less toxic, where the player needs to gather more than just one resource.
To compensate for the economic nerf, the infantry training speed card could be 30% or 35% instead of 20%.
In that regard, the main issue is still Kielbasa—it’s a card that scales the economy too much. While I agree that Agrarian Reform** needs a nerf**, infantry training speed should also be increased to at least 30-35%.
Another consideration is whether they should actually have 99 vill pop. I actually find myself thinking Kielbasa could be a tech in the livestock Folwork but maybe they should be capped at 80 vills. Between the livestock and better farming rates, along with the capital resource generation and cheaper cav card their eco seems really strong.
I mean, retainers need a nerf, perhaps losing the wood into coin cost, and losing like 20% of your eco is kinda a big deal. I was wondering if losing 20% of vill pop would push you down enough that you can’t endlessly throw retainers away. Currently you have a much better than normal eco.
The problem isn’t the number of villagers; it’s the fact that they only need to gather food the entire game. If Poland had to gather gold as well, their economy would be much weaker.
With Germany, too, if you field 122 villagers (23 wagons + 99 villagers), you can gather 13k food; if you include cows and sheep in your deck, that figure exceeds 15k. The issue is that Germany lacks an infinite food-to-gold trade, whereas Poland has one, and that specific trade is what makes them economically problematic. Nerfing the “Agrarian Reform” card and forcing them to gather gold would solve a large part of the economic issue; taking away 19 villagers from a civ that has a strong, cheap, 1-population cavalry unit isn’t a smart move.
I also think that reducing the number of villagers would be counterproductive, since, in the end, what usually gives you an advantage in the late game is the number of units. I think the nerf should be economic and focused on their two best-scaling units: the Reteiner and the Piechur.
There are definitely several issues with Poland. The folwarks literally have a ridiculous gather rate with kielbasa; this undoubtedly gives them the highest food gathering rate in the game, far exceeding that of a Settler Wagon. On the other hand, the Wódka Distillery makes them even more absurd: it’s as if it multiplies their stttlers by having them collect 10% of their food gathering rate at the folwark directly as coin. Their food gather rate without kielbasa is nearly 10k/min; to put that into context, it’s almost equivalent to the Germans using 99 villagers and 23 Settler Wagons. It’s undoubtedly absurd and, as mentioned above, forces Poland to never need a settler gathering coin from states.
How does agrarian reforms need a nerf? Because if it would be so strong as to require a nerf then the Danes would also overperform on food. They do not.
It’s not the average farmer in the folwark that is the issue, the issue is the auto harvesting (aka non micro requireing) pig farm card.
bueno, llega un punto en que tu mismo tienes que entrenar de nuevo a los cerdos xd pero se entiende el punto, quizas el folwark podriaa simplemente recolectar 8/s en lugar de 20. Lo otro, quizas la carta de folwark avanzado podria ser nerfeada un poco, con folwark termina valiendo 134 de madera y termina teniendo casi 5k de Hp, ni la hacienda mexicana termina con tanta vida con 1 sola carta. podria simplemente cambiar su reducción de coste, en lugar de un 20% podria ser -15 de madera (en lugar de reducirle 34) y que su mejora de HP podria ser solo un 50%. de todas formas seguirian siendo bastante baratos de reconstruir.
They have a higher rate (+70%) then russians (+60%) which have basically the maxed out food rate for euro civs (refridge, sustainable agri, food silo and eco theory)
agrarian reforms is basically Food silo and sustainable agriculture rolled into 1 for a downside that isnt really a downside. It buff more then even a maltese age 4 card
Danes food rate is comparable to Ethiopia which have one of the highest rates in the game before this
germany has wagons, brits have manor boom, mexico has vill spam, dutch have banks. And what is the economic differential por poles? kielbasa and agrarian reforms. If you nerf that, poles economy goes to straight to trash tier.
Do you even know how invested you need to be on food before being able to send the infinite trade card? it’s mostly a late game card.
Ethiopia gets insane natural resource gathering and i dont see anyone complaining.
The civs you mentioned have a boom just as aggressive and economic sustainability just as powerful as Poland’s.
I played a treaty match (40 min) where a teammate disconnected, leaving me in a 2v1 situation for 32 minutes; I didn’t get wiped out—my score was dropping and I was being drained, but very slowly, and it took two players to do it. I trained 8,000 units in that match, including 5,000 Retainers.
Any other civ in the game would have gone bankrupt in 8 minutes or less in that situation; I simply had the luxury of training Retainers and suiciding them against enemy troops until my artillery was ready and I could hold the line.
If you think the economies of Poland and Denmark are normal, sorry, but either you have a severe skill issue or you’re in denial.
There are only two viable options: either buff the rest of the game or nerf the Polish economy.
None of these examples generates between 13k and 14k resources while still leaving enough population space to fight; the only one capable of generating that amount of resources is Germany, but doing so requires 145 population, meaning you eventually have to delete villagers to fight.
If you have natives with economic buffs, the civ becomes bizarrely even stronger; there’s even an interaction, specifically with Poland and the House of Jagiellon native, that definitely shouldn’t happen, which I actually reported on the forum.
By using the Balance of Power skill and spending 70 wood to produce a crate of 100 food, you can consistently maintain your harvest rate between 30k and 38k per minute; by the time you run out of wood, the Balance of Power skill is ready to use again.
You want to be a tad careful using anecdotes, but just based on the high food gather rate on vills that don’t move constantly I believe you are correct. Aren’t the Polish age 5 gather rates similar to mill rates from civs like Portugal but without the disadvantage of walking around? Yeah… I think they are…
The French have 80 vill cap because their villagers gather 25% faster.
How many fully upgraded vills are 2 Kielbasa Folworks worth? How does 1 vill gathering on a Folwork compare to one on a mill? I think I could argue that late game you are looking at aspects similar to the Dutch and the French.
The goal would be getting their Res/per minute down to something a bit lower than the French, who also happen to have a cavalry discount. The reason for going lower is to counteract some of the strong units (some of which need nerfs).
It might be too difficult to achieve, or a better option might be available, but it’s a theoretically feasible solution.
Obviously Retainers need a nerf too, but if your eco is a bit worse than your opponent’s you also shouldn’t be able to afford to throw them away anymore and a weaker eco should have a somewhat outsized impact on Retainers which lack meaningful ranged armor.
