So far as I can tell with Skadi’s “long-form ceremonies,” they have an upper limit that much be met and, eventually, they can no longer be useful.
They slowly, over time, fill up bars that have a maximum capacity. At some point, the ceremonies are no longer useful.
Well, I’d imagine something like an infinite XP ceremony or a mass-heal might be consistently useful.
Actually, the real problem is people wanting ceremonies gone for some civ because they’re “offensive” while keeping them for others.
I kinda just combined half of the features of the Shrine with half the features of the Livestock Marked.
But you’re somewhat right. Maybe they shouldn’t interact with mines at all.
But I do like the idea of having a trade of between killing them for Food+Influence or letting them stay alive to trickle some Coin.
Unlike Livestock Markets you can’t sell them.
Buffalo Pounds where build to trap Bison so I like the idea of them doing that ingame too. The Bison they generate are trapped and can’t move away, and they are also protected from being harvested by allies.
Maybe they could also attract other nearby huntable animals and trap them too.
The gold trickle could still be an exclusive feature of the Lakota even if the Buffalo Pound was shared with other civilisations.
The others would need some other bonus for it in return.
Yeah that makes more sense.
I thought about following HC cards:
Age I:
Age II:
Age III
You can choose if and how many Wojuti you want to unlock.
The cards are somewhat similar to the US Immigrant cards.
You can choose between shipping Khuwa or Wojuti in the first age.
The Khuwa cards offers good value, you get 3 villagers that cost 120 Food (same value as 3 Coureurs card) or you use the Influence that you get from hunting to invest into Wojuti.
Alternatively you can save up that Influence to get a few units of upgrades with in the second Age and use them for an early push.
I suggested that they work like gradual upgrades.
I would also probably change the name to reflect that.
You are doing training, research, planing etc. and it will give you a permanent bonus.
The advantage is that you don’t have to switch between Ceremonies all the time or between Ceremonies and farming.
You do the “Ceremonies” for a long term global bonus.
So if you “train” fighting your units will be stronger forever.
If you “train” wood cutting you will be faster at cutting wood forever.
This system could also work for other civilisations that are not Americans.
I like the idea of adding it to revolutions. Making it political themed.
Yeah in my model you could probably max out all of them in a very long treaty game but is that bad?
You can also research all technologies and then the game aspect of having to research things is not there anymore.
I personally don’t care if they are offensive. That’s for other people to decide.
I care about if they are interesting gameplay mechanics that I (or others) enjoy playing.
Anyway, when do we add the Community Plaza to Germany with the “Oktoberfest” Home City Card?
Honestly, this might just be the simplest way. There’s no particular reason the Lakota need to interact with gold mines. Even from a gameplay-balance perspective, the Lakota (in this model) have a plethora of reasons to expand out and vie for control of the map, and they would use tipis to do so. They’re already going to be all over the map.
So that leaves us with two options - Either Khuwa just have a natural trickle of gold when they collect food (maybe wood?) or the Lakota just flat-out have one less resource than other civs.
Both could be interesting directions to go.
I like the idea, but that puts more power into the Pound. For something like this, it might need to be a locked building until Age 3, where one is naturally unlocked, and cards are available in Industrial, like Factories, to increase the limit to 3.
Personally, for balance reasons, I think the Lakota should be incapable of sending Khuwa until Commerce, and even then, be solely a TEAM card to avoid sending too many - TEAM 2 Khuwa would be ideal.
Like I’ve said, hunting as much as the Lakota do creates a massive influx of food, very fast. If they get too many Khuwa too easily, they’ll easily overpower most civs in early eco just because of how fast they can gather food.
For the Wojuti, I think leaving them until Age 2, then enabling them with a limit of 20 will be fine. This would have to be kept in mind in regards to balance, as well - possible that sending the card Peacepipe Negotiations for Natives reduces all villager build limits by 20? That’s 2 full Gardens’ worth of Wojuti that every Native civ would benefit from, and it would still be reducing Outlaw pop cost by -2 as well.
If anything, the Lakota might have an extra card to ship in, say, 10 Wojuti for 500 Influence in Industrial Age that increases the limit of Wojuti by 10, simply because they’re relatives to the Lakota. Make it simpler all-around and require less cards.
Because the Wojuti are essentially a more powerful villager, it wouldn’t make sense to not include all of them, no matter what civ you have, so this would just reduce the number of required cards for the Native civs but give the Lakota a bit of a push in the late-game where their economy might be stagnating a bit.
I’d say that Advanced Gardens would still probably be a card, but it’d be more useful for the Hauds, who would get a bonuses to collection rates early on that might put Gardening rates on-par with food and mining rates from natural resources by late-Fortress.
Nah, that’s good. It gives players an end-goal to work towards instead of a constantly-shifting problem that never quite gets solved.
That would mean no villager card in Age 1?
Maybe I should simplify the cards:
Age 1:
This would be a nice card to boost early game economy.
It could be an easy pickup even if you don’t want to go for a farming economy later.
Age 2:
If you want to mainly go for Bison economy this card can still be helpful to get one Three Sister Garden running in the late game, which is also very helpful for Wood, something that Bison can’t provide at all.
The Haudenosaunee could get the same card but with Cree Coureur des Bois instead.
Age 3:
Similar to Germantown Farmers which unlocks Settler Wagons, but Settler Wagons are better so you get one Three Sister Garden to make up for that.
This card is something you’d send if you go for a farming oriented late game economy.
Wojuti of course count to the general Villager limit.
So when you get all of the 30 of them you can get then you will have 30 less Khuwa.
You are probably right that the limit should be lower, 5 could be a little much.
So maybe the Limit is 1 and you can increase it to 3 with 2 Home City Cards.
Or it’s +1 from the Home City and +1 from Big Banner technology.
3rd option would be +1 from the Home City but you can resend the card in Imperial Age.
Tradehouse it is pretty much the same as a Tavern.
New possible cards:
Unlock Miner(campaign unit):
Unlock Arrow Knights:
Unlock Jaguar Warrior:
Unlock Haida Canoes:
Unlock Renegade French:
Unlock Renegade Dutch
On top of that there should be new North American Mercenaries.
South Americans ones too of course but they are not relevant for those 2 civilisations.
I feel the same actually. I personnally always liked the fire pit. I’m not the one who’s offended. The thing is, some people were, so it was replaced with the plaza (worse imo). Now Ana and some others want it completely removed, which I’m still finw with, as long as we find a good replacement and for the sake of historical accuracy. Now my problem is that some of you explicitly pointed out that the Lakota and Hauds (or tortuamerica) should have more respectful and accurate representation, but the Aztecs and Incas could keep their “magic” ceremonies.
How is that ok? It’s called hypocrisy.
Did you read my post?
I want to replace the ceremonies with a mechanic that is basically equivalent to researching technologies.
Something all civilisations already do in the game.
For the Lakota specifically, correct. Assuming they have unique Khuwa as villagers, they wouldn’t need any. Khuwa should be hard-focused towards hunting - start them with 4 and good balance and they won’t need any more without snowballing out of control real quick.
I’m not even sure about having Wojuti shipping in for them early. For every other civ, it’d be fine, but it’s specifically the Lakota + Khuwa that I’m hesitant about. I’ve played around with modded villager gather rates a lot and even a small boost of Khuwa is enough to snowball early food gather rates out of control to a rate that other civs couldn’t match.
Peacepipe #########ons would just be the Native version of the Taverns/Saloons card. It could ship in a wagon if we really wanted, but there’s not much of a point to - it might actually be OP for the Natives to ship in any buildings early, considering both the Hauds and Lakota have high pop caps from the start (200 and 50, respectively) so free buildings are just letting them snowball that much faster.
The Idea is that the Lakota would rely on natural hunts through ages 1+2, and gain access to a Buffalo Pound in age 3, but with a high build cost to push them off building it until necessary. Giving them stronger, unique villagers is to encourage pushing off the Buffalo Pound as long as possible, to make roaming the map a little bit safer since their villagers will be semi-able to defend themselves.
But once the late-game is reached, Peacepipe Negotiations should be a required card for the Lakota’s late-game. With a lower Khuwa cap of, say, 60 or so, the cap on Wojuti would be 20 naturally, then the Lakota specifically would have a card to push that cap to 30, leaving the Lakota with a 90-ish villager economy. It’d be hard finding things to do with all the Khuwa, though, given that they wouldn’t be nearly as effective on the Gardens. It might be necessary to allow the Lakota wood gather rate cards affect both natural wood sources and the Garden gather rather so the Khuwa aren’t completely worthless past a certain point. (60 Khuwa doing nothing but gathering food would be… a terrifying economy.)
I rather like this. Its own BBT could just be increasing its build limit, as well as improving the general effectiveness of it.
100%
Miners? That’d be weird. Maybe as a unique Outlaw or something, but just on its own would be weird.
Arrow Knights? That depends on how the Aztecs get changed. Put that aside for now.
Jaguar Knights? Same thing as the AKs.
Haida Canoes? I made a list of possible Haida Gelwa that I think should be available, and, unfortunately, unless we want to make up what-ifs about the Haud and Lakota navies, either shipping these in or just making them the basic navy for the Native civs is probably best.
Although I’m not against a heavy dose of what-if here.
The difference here is that the long-form ceremonies aren’t magic. They aren’t gaining a sudden 100% damage bonus because someone across the map is dancing funny, the Temples are essentially trading normal resources for Priests to research free techs over much longer periods of time. They’re not “stop + go,” they’re permanent and would take a long time to finish.
You put the Priests on War Tactics for 5 minutes, you get 10% more damage bonus to all your units… permanently. Even when you swap to let your Temples heal nearby units, that 10% damage bonus doesn’t go away.
The point is that it’s no longer “magic” swapping back and forth for massive, sudden, map-wide boosts that come and go arbitrarily, it’s long-form researching that permanently gives bonuses across your entire civ, based on whatever it is you’re researching.
Yes, I’ve read your post. I still don’t know if I like it or not, but I wasn’t pointing at you directly.
But in that case, why not keeping it for the Lakotas and Hauds? Your whole campaign against the plaza was about it being offensive because you think it’s “magic” and based on steteotypes.
Don’t get me wrong, I still agree with you on this. But if we remove stereotypes, let’s be fair with everyond.
Are you unaware that this post is treating the Lakota/Hauds separately from the Inca/Aztecs? The goal from the start was two different solutions.
Preferably three, if we can find a new thing for either the Inca or Aztecs, but if they are going to be kept together, then it’s fine.
Yes, I’m much aware of it, and that’s exactly what I reproach to you. Even though you didn’t make THIS thread, you created several others, in which you claimed the plaza should be removed. Many times, you said the Aztecs snd Incas should keep it.
Just why? Is this because you don’t like them? Or because there’s no representative of these cultures on the forum to defend themselves?
I seriously don’t care if native civs get split into several cultures, neither would I care if they were kept as one. But I don’t appreciate to see them still get bad representation based on steretotypes while YOU think your tortuamerica civs deserve better.
EVERY civ/culture in the game should get proper representation.
They shouldn’t, and it’s hard to see anyone in these threads arguing for that. Especially given the legacy of The Warchiefs expansion, it makes bugger all sense that the Aztecs get the exact same religious building as the North Americans. The whole “dancing around the firepit” is a depiction of North American cultures that’s about as accurate as Julius Ceasar’s descriptions of Gallic tribes in Bello Gallico (1), made worse by the fact that AoE3 applies it to the equivalent of the Greeks in this anology.
I do think that the Aztecs should get some sort of building that represents the fact that they’ve got organised state religion, much like how the European civs get a church. The idea of a religios building providing ‘buffs provided to you over time becuase of the efforts of the priesthood providing admininistrative and logistical benefits’ is very close to how the game represents the european church. It’s a far cry from the current “thoughts and prayers” approach.
So I somewhat disagree with the notion of just giving the Lakota one less resource from a gameplay standpoint, mostly becuase AoE3 already has a reduction in gatherable resources compared to AoE2… But now you’ve got me thinking about AoE2, so… You know the Goths?
The Goths are a pretty unique civ in 2 because they flat out don’t get access to stone walls. And although they can build a castle, they have less ‘need’ for it then other civs becuase they only really need it for the research: They can produce their unique units in the barracks quite easily. You may note some similarities with the Lakota not being able to build walls until age 4. This essentially means that stone is less essential for the Goths compared to other civs.
Whilst coin may be significantly less important to the Lakota, they still live in a world where coin is very important to everyone else. on that notion, I’d keep the tribal marketplace, mabye make it a permanent building with a slow gather rate, but ensure that a lot of cavalry units that the Lakota currently buy with coin can be bought with food+wood instead - with the exception of units that have weapons that the Lakota traded for, like the Rifle Riders.
Or in short, you’d make coin a harder to acquire but more specialized resource, a bit like… well… influence.
In my concept the Buffalo Pound is required to trickle Coin.
All trapped huntables trickle some coin (like Cattle trickles Influence for Africans and XP for Indians or how huntables increase the trickle rate of Shrines) so the Lakota get some passive Coin income in the early game.
Maybe the feature that the Buffalo Pound can also produce Bison itself could be locked until later. Putting it behind a Big Banner would mean you have to pay for it and it doesn’t add another must have card to your deck.
I think must have cards are a kinda bad design because the limit choice.
As I just wrote.
What if the ability to produce Bison itself is locked behind a Big Button?
In the early game you only have 1 Buffalo Pound and you can move it around to catch huntables.
Then either kill them or let them trickle coin for you.
In the late game you keep the Buffalo Pounds at home because the can now produce Bison for you.
A second one can be send from the Home City.
That would give you 2 Bison per minute.
The exact number are up for debate. It could be 3 Pounds or alternatively a faster Bison production time.
They would be a new Outlaw unit that would possible be available to other civilisations too.
This is assuming those units don’t change fundamentally.
I thought about that before.
But there are a lot of things in AoE3 that cost coin.
A lot of shared technologies, especially Age Up cost coin.
You can’t just replace everything with Wood because all buildings also cost Wood.
Yeah both civs need to invest less into housing but houses are just 20*100 = 2000 Wood.
If Age Ups cost Wood instead of Coin then that saving would be gone by Industrial Age for Age Ups alone.
Some of the costs could also be replaced with Food.
This kinda already happens with Haudenosaunee units.
All their Age 2 units don’t cost Coin and the Aenna is the only regular unit that just costs Food.
The other two units (Tomahawk and Kanya Horseman) also cost more Food then Wood.
Also all unit upgrades would have to be changed to Food and Wood from Coin and Wood.
But in the end I think that would be too big of a change and to hard to balance.
Coin is just too much of a core element of the game.
And I think this is problematic because it bars other potential prairie nations from being made into civs. The buffalo pound would be a building shared by them all, albeit to differing levels of efficiency.
But if the pound now trickles coin, that’s giving potential future civs like the Iron Confederacy and the Numunuu an extra source of early-game coin that they really don’t need, seeing as both would be able to mine just fine.
Lakota coin collection, in whatever form it takes, needs to be separate from the Buffalo Pound.
Trickling coin would be a unique feature of Lakota.
The other nations that might be added would have the same building but without that feature.
The Lakota bonus would be either of those
So the other nations wouldn’t get the early Coin. Either they would just get the catching ability or they would just get it in late game where it already produces Bison.
It’s probably unlikely that another Prairie nation will be added soon so we shouldn’t limit Lakota design just in case.
Might actually be interesting to make trickling coin while gathering resources a unique feature of the Khuwa themselves, rather than a Lakota-wide thing. It’d make that TEAM 2 Khuwa shipment in Age 2 a strong and much-sought after shipment for allies.
If we take from my design ideas involving the Too’te Lodge, we might be able to come up with something more clear-cut for the Buffalo Pound - the Too’te Lodge must be manned by villagers, who work in a small area around it, and can be set to three different variables;
Gather puts all your villagers to chopping all the trees near it, purely collecting resources. I’d imagine, with the high rate of Haudenosaunee wood gathering, this would result in a sudden and very impactful surge in wood - but the number of trees around the Too’te Lodge is determined purely by how many trees your villagers have planted with Plant. While Plant is enabled, the villagers would gather XP at a rate related to wood gathering rates (maybe half?) but would be planting and tending to trees, expanding the number of trees around the lodge.
Hybrid puts half the villagers on Gather and half on Plant. Ideally, this would lead to a perfect balance of gather wood/plant trees that wouldn’t require any player input, but I’m not sure how hard that would be to calculate.
Taking from this general setup, it might be possible to create something similar, where the civ has to sacrifice villager seconds to generate more natural resource, which they can then harvest. It’s a fair trade-off and is a good spot to put an XP generation in so they can still push cards faster than other civs.
However, I’m, uh, at a bit of a loss as to how. Ideas?
My concept was to make Influence trickle their feature.
It could be reversed of course but that would be kinda against the theme.
I don’t want to generate 3 resources (ignoring XP) by 1 activity which is hunting.
All Native villagers would be trickling Influence, so that’s less of a worry. The Tradehouse would be changing that % based on how the player wants.
But you’re right. That’s too many resources at once. Maybe the Buffalo Pound produces Food-filled bison naturally, but with Khuwa working it, it produces Gold-filled bison? Could put one BP on gold and two on food in the later game, and that would likely be enough from those two resources alone.
But then that raises the issue of What is the purpose of the Wojuti? If the BPs can produce gold + food, then the Gardens are existing solely to collect wood.
Basically what it sounds like is that, whatever gold income we figure out for the Lakota, it needs to be one that functions early on, but isn’t a lasting way to collect gold. Either it gets out-paced by the Gardens or there ceases to be a way to collect it after so long.
The Buffalo Pounds wouldn’t be enough to employ all your villagers.
Also they would require some micro compared to the completely passive farming.
It would be kinda like livestock.
It’s technically very efficient but it requires some player input.
The details definitely need some some number crunching and testing.
The Buffalo Pounds would practically replace the factories and not the Farms+Estates of other civilisations.
So in treaty games you probably have to go for farming.