Ironclad of Teutons

Shouldn’t a Castle unique tech of Teutons “Ironclad” be giving their siege +4 pierce armor instead of +4 melee?

Wouldn’t it make more sense from balance point of view?

But siege already resists archer fire, it doesn’t make sense.

Very often you can kill onagers with ranged units.
I really think that would be a good change for them.

It’s neither a buff neither a nerf it’s a change.

Im curious, how would +4 pierce armor SO fair against mangadi?

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In castle age this version of ironclad would only improve mangonels and scorpions against CA and guard towers (and to attack guard towers you would be better of just spending these ressources on repairs). It would have an effect in imperial age, sure but at the cost of most of its castle age effect. And it would become 100% useless for rams, even removing their ability to tank chu ko nu and kipchak fire better than generic siege rams.

It would change nothing, as mangudai already only deal their bonus damages to normal rams.
Plz excuse my negative IQ, It would actually completely negate the effect of chemistry+blacksmith upgrades from the Mongol player (for onagers)


I’m not gonna lie I’m concentrating on 1v1s where Siege Onager upgrade is rare to see and really needs to be justified with fully boomed eco behind (140 vills).

Realistically, players don’t get it cause it’s just too expensive. In order to counter ranged units Teuton player makes skirms on open and semi open maps but since they miss bracer thoose skirms are not great. Mainly because just Onagers are actually week against micro-ed range. If you could make Onagers but with cheaper upgrade of additional pierce armor it would be a really nice option to actually counter arbalests, cav archers and ranged UUs.

A good example of a problem I’m describing was a pro game yesterday on Red Bull’s Empire Wars stream where mobile ranged units couldn’t be countered by Teutons:
Teutons vs Berbers
I don’t remember who played it but you can look it up yourself if you are interested.

well aren’t civs like celts, slavs and Teutons supposed to go halb SO to counter mobility anyway? That said the SO research time and the slow production does make for a poor choice for RBW settings

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Hmm, I think I don’t think I understand what you are saying regarding the whole topic of changing Ironclad. Could you elaborate?

About SO being rare and not being justified in 1v1, but for those civs it’s either work towards it or die

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oh, yeah. The purpose of this tech would be to make your Onagers and bbc counter ranged and mobile ranged units more convincingly before being able to afford SO.

Yeah… my idea probably doesn’t make much sense.

I say +4 both. And then change them to infantry and Siege unit as German engineer is known to be reliable and good.

I think it’s an interesting idea, since Ironclad is probably my favourite unique tech in the game, but wouldn’t it be insanely OP? +4 pierce armor would also mean Bombard Cannons resist archer fire and take only 1 damage from fully upgraded Arbalests.

I’d make it +3 melee and +1 pierce because both are unique, but even that one pierce armor would make Siege Onager take only 1 damage from Arbalests, essentially giving them double the HP.


I think Teutons need PA on siege more than MA, since they have amazing melee units like halbs, champions, paladin, teutonic knights that can defend that siege against any enemy melee but then all of it dies to archers and cav archers.

The issue I see is that Teutons are amazing, maybe the best against other infantry civs, but they are really bad against archer and cav archer civs. That’s the reason why I am addressing this tech - to make Teutons more evened.

If it’s going to be pierce only, it’ll be a pointless as a castle age tech as crossbows already do 1 damage to mangonels. I’ve read somewhere about the idea of switching the Teuton castle and imp UT.

I’ve also noticed how gold heavy/dependent teutons are with their awful trash yet they lack gold shaft mining. Perhaps they recieved the wrong buff

I strongly disagree with switching the techs because of multiple reasons.

There are units called unique pierce damaging ranged units and majority of them deal more than 1 damage to mangonels. At the same time once you upgrade crossbow with any, literally any imperial tech you already gain ridiculous advantage over mangonels

Farm eco is enough of a boost, it doesn’t change military options of Teutons in any way. It’s almost like you missed the whole point of this thread.

I’m so tired, like don’t you understand that Teutons have amazing eco and that’s not where they should receive any further buffs?

No I don’t understand how slightly arrow resistant onager will change how Teutons deal with archers and mobility

Onager AND bbc with +3 PA or +4 PA
That would be a huge change for Teutons.
Enables you to potentially go all in castle push with knights and mangonels even against massed arbalests. The only civ that could do that in these circumstances.
Mangonelskarls or some silly name like that, I think that would add even more identity to the civ.

At the same time you could just use benefits of this tech in imperial age.