Maybe some will get mad at me for “criticizing” the Retold dev team, but has anyone else noticed that the game is gradually going back to how it originally was? All the major changes made by the Retold team are being reverted with each balancing patch, to balance out the imbalance they caused. Will the game return to its almost original form?
Is this a valid reflection for many other things from the past that we thought we could do better, but over time we understand why they were the way they were? I mean, it’s natural for things to change, but it’s not necessarily natural for them to always change for the better, so it’s understandable that there are setbacks and advances. Throughout history, we see this at many moments, in the most varied areas, and of course, in the gaming world, it wouldn’t be any different.
To conclude, I’m not making a destructive and malicious criticism of the Retold team. They have their strengths and weaknesses, and they are solving many problems while trying to keep the game alive with new DLCs. However, I think it’s worth taking a look back and trying to understand what makes Age of Mythology such a special game, and I’m not talking about pure nostalgia.
Hahaha, really, there used to be a very strong counter in the game. For example, in a Zeus vs Zeus match Medusas would always ruin the fun for the Colossus.
Actually, the game was balanced, what happened was that there were ways to obliterate a less prepared opponent. If you were a PRO player, it wasn’t even fun to play a match against someone above average, because a pro knew how to micro their units very well. On the other hand, all civilizations had their extra strengths. You just had to know how to use them properly. Microing Medusa, Bellerophon, Perseus, Argus, etc., would mean the end of the game for the opponent.
In RTS Sanctuary, there are 1v1 matches lasting 1 hour between 2 pros, like The Mista, Adhafang, etc., and the games were intense no metter the ‘gods’… And they played on Random God, meaning the balance did exist, but it disadvantaged those who were just playing the game casually and for fun.
In short: The game did need balance, but the “core” of the game, so to speak, was perfect… For example, improvements on the Dock, building hit points, etc. What needed to change was a bit of balance with the units, for example: The mummy could kill a Colossus with one hit. That was crazy. But in return, Bellerophon could kill the mummy with one hit too. This made the game a micro war, and the faster player would come out on top.
Some gods never saw good results in competitive in the OG days. Player balance patches were made on voobly to help solve those issues, because a couple of gods dominated the meta. Some pantheons even never did very good until players made custom balance patches to solve issues.
Perseus never was in all of AOM history a good unit. Specially when you compare it next to Bellerophon which was by far the best hero out of the 3 and with the original jump cooldown it was just insane at high level play.
Thats always the case in all RTS games, not really an argument for it being balanced or not
That doesnt mean much. If most of the meta is dominated by a couple of gods, lets say 6 see play and 6 dont. That isnt really balanced, even if the 6 gods that see play compete some what evenly among each other. (mayor gods).
I assured you at no point in the titans game was the Loki vs Gaia match up balanced, and thats just the easiest example. Theres others.
This is somewhat a subjetive take and sure you can love the core of the game, i certainly did. But people should stop looking at old games with rose tinted lenses and see how much abuse there was. Not to downplay on them, but peope tend to remember things better than they were due to nostalgia. If original AOM balance was brought on retold people would complain a lot.
Try that with poseidon or Hades and see how it goes. Perseus always had a lackluster result since he was slow, targeted easily and would die before he could be of use. Sure you can always reduce hypoteticals to “its a micro game” but in reality theres no way you can look at all 3 greek mythic heroes and say “yea the are evenish in power”. Specially on old AOM.
Maybe “subjective” was your opinion on me talking about the game because I have “good nostalgic memories about it”? You asked if I still play it on GameRanger or Voobly? Be careful not to do something you’re criticizing in someone else.
Are you assuming that the meta was based on these “6 gods” (that you didn’t mention the names), or are you stating it statistically? Because from what I remember, the best players would always choose Random God and play well in any match with any of them.
The discussion shifted from “the core of the game was balanced” to “the Greek heroes were unbalanced”?
The game isn’t a battle between heroes, it’s a battle between “civilizations/gods,” so it’s obvious to point out that it doesn’t make sense to say Zeus was better just because he had better heroes. Hades had his own strengths and weaknesses, and maybe the heroes were part of his weakness to compensate for his stronger units, like better archers/free soldiers (Hades’ shadow)/and absurdly strong buildings, both in attack and hit points.
Certainly, it’s an example. You know how to write and come up with examples, and you could do that all day long, indeed. Of course, this doesn’t mean that your example automatically becomes true.
When you replied to this, I imagine you perfectly understood that I was referring to how good micro influenced the game. I didn’t say that this was good or bad, I just said that things were like this. Now the game is more “noob friendly” or casual friendly, and I think that’s good. I never liked the Medusas killing the Colossus like that, or the Argus melting an elephant.
Nah, subjetive is what it is. We both can be giving opinions on things and those are subjetive, likes, dislikes and such. On the other hand there are things that arent subjetive, where facts are involved and thats where i was going with my idea.
Either version of game ranger or voobly isnt the original game. Both have been patched by players so it doesnt really matter which of those you play. To clarify i didnt mean to say “this was so long ago you dont remeber it well” i meant it as in “nostalgia blinds people from seeing mistakes in what they love”.
I am mentioning an example. We can go into the details if you want to. No player won a tournament maining gaia, norse success was awful before the player patches. It was mostly greek, Eggy and Uranos. Im sure most other gods won games every now and then since overall skill gaps do exist and make due for it but definately some gods out shined others in a big way. And no tournaments where not on a “random god” basis, at least most of them.
No, as most things you mention im also using examples. You mention mummies vs colossus. Does that mean your whole argument revolves around those 2 units? Ofc no. I can see that, you can see that. Would be a very long conversationn if either of us had to list every single interaction. Im just listing the ones that are the most notable to showcase that the game wasent “perfectly balanced”
And just to clarify again. That doesnt make it a bad game. It simply doesnt hold to the standard people hold multiplayer balance today.
Zeus was just better most of OG AOM than the other greeks (check the tournaments wins you mention). Saying it was just because of bellerophon is not true, theres more to it, but it having a unit thats quite beefy that can 1-2 shot not only myth units but siege and other key targets was def a reason for it. And thats why im using it as an example to showcase my point. Yes each god has different bonus but some are stronger than others. Uranos speed for units is another great example, see much stronger he is than the other two atty cvis and its mostly due to that.
No match up in Retold is as unfair as that one. That much kinda proves the balance is better now.
Yea, we on the same page. Player skill is the most impactful variable. Im not arguing either if thats good or bad. However thats something that happens in all RTS, its not something unique to AOM and it definataly isnt an argument for it being “balanced” since when that skill gap closes the game itself mechanics and unbalanced issues matter more.
And theres clear ways to see it. If I (anyone) have to play twice as fast/good/focused/w/e as the other person to do the same thing with a different civ/god/myth unit/unit,etc thats not balanced. Ofc skill can bridge the gap, but at the core theres an issue.
Yep, and thta’s the reason Argus, Cyclops, Medusa and maybe Mummy need to have their instant kills reinstated Otherwise it’s a bit unfair/ hypocritical.
But then only for human units, right? Then I agree. Cause I really think for other myth units it can stay the way it is.
I also would rather prefer an upgraded club for Cyclopes when they have their upgrade with a base attack/crush dmg boost. Cyclopses are master craftsmen (of at least some of them)
Tbh, I’d prefer they were as they were in 2003. But, I’d rather they had them than not at all. So if it’s a balance issue, an acceptable compromise would be human units only.
Personally I never liked that decision by the old devs.
Medusa or Mummy etc costing about the same if not less (don’t have the numbers in my head) than a fire giant or colossus (I think even a bit less) and then insta killing the unit? Wasn’t fun and I love Medusa as a unit.
Of course you could say: well then don’t train fire giants and colossus. But this is, in my opinion, lame cause this game should be about building myth units and not avoiding them being not able to use them at least for some short time.
I think they made the right call with improving their stats and nerfing the instant kill to a high dmg spell.
Other option would have been:
Massively increase the cost of one-shot units - which would be bad cause they would be trained even less or avoided completely…
Or increase the CD of the other one-shot skill. That could have been actually a healthy alternative.
But comparing TaoTie with the old one-shot myth units is unfair cause TaoTie doesn’t eat myth units.
(I also like the new mummy mechanic more personally and in all honesty I think Argus should look and play differently. I like the new design more but it’s still away from what I would think of it but whatever I am fine with many things and welcome new ideas)
The thing with insta kill myth untis is that they can remove a part of the game from play. Unlike in retold where you can recast god powers in old aom favor was just used for unique upgrades or myth units, there was no other reason to mass favor (well and titan gate).
IMO its good that 1 shot units dont exist in retold. At least to me its just not fun gameplay to say “no u dont” to your opponent. Theres more skill expression in microing units to focus others than just sending a unit, using its special and then retreating it to wait again for its use.
Nah, just replied to the last comment. Dunno if its possible to reply to more than one person.
Dunno why i understood the oposite. Oh maybe because you said it was prob fine to increase the cd of one shots. But i see now. Btw, taotie is kinda in a funny spot, i love the myth unit and its very strong how you can gobble atty villagers but Nuba is just nevery really worth it outside of some cheese strats.
Its also nice that classic and heroic myth units are improved on mythic so its still valid to make some of them in mythic.
(that’s an argus btw… I want them back)
Otherwise it’s a bit unfair/ hypocritical.