Italian rebalance, how do you feel it?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
425

Just wanna say i think pavise shouldn’t be made weaker if anything can be buffed. We’ve had these cyclic discussions about buffing condos before and the effect on allied civs. If anything silk road can change instead of pavise.

I would prefer a minor reduction in tt and cost +time reduction on the EGC tech since its over priced.

But otherwise some other early game change instead of extra PA. Since it would suck even more if italians had 2 sucky UT (if you nerfed pavise and buffed their archers)

Even though its not exactly the same as viets it locks Italians into being yet another archer civ if they want to leverage their bonuses as opposed to being a diverse civ which they’ve always seemed to be (like China and porto)

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426

Yeah, but the problem is that on land nothing about italians stands out aside their above average archers. They are supposed to be some sort of gunpowder civ, but given how much HC suck, that just doesn’t work. To me italians, much like portoguese, feel like a very generic civ without a clear identity. I would like them to have something which makes them stand out and make them actually fun to play.

Another option would be to do as you said, remove silk road and split pavise in two techs, one for condos and one for archers. Silk road would be much more fitting as a team bonus to be honest.

427

you cannot make it a team bonus, because it would be very OP if coupled with Spanish.

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428

Not with 50% discount for sure, less could work…if condos wasn’t already the team bonus, that is. And silk road is not even close to the spanish bonus.

429

Still, it is really useful for starting the trade (you can start it before, or you retrieve your inversion faster) and for re-starting the trade after losing it under an enemy raid.

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430

The fact that people complain even about both the UTs says a lot on the civ. There are much better civs, which in addition of being better, have also better UTs.

Silk road is useless for 1v1 and a bad civ for 1v1 may desire a good 1v1 UT.

I am favorable to change silk road, but again it is not the main issue.

Excluding the issue of SE, which several people are asking for, the problem is the early game, and imo it is what needs a buff, either by a military bonus (anticipating part of the pavise effect is one option) or by an eco bonus (there are several options, like the gold trickle or a discounted building).

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431

I don’t need other people to back me up (even if 6 months ago were saying this exact thing…) I already proved to you with math. The maen may be different but the end result is exactly the same, and there isn’t no way to make those bonuses different.

They do, you can’t just look at post imp and say that the results it’s the same, you also need to look at how you get there. Both viets and Italians save about the same during feudal age (175w vs 195f), and if you give Italians extra armor for free, both their archers would perform the same.

Breaking pavise and anticipate its effect partially don’t make sense. If viets didn’t have such a similar bonus I may be in favor of something similar, but it’s not the case.

Italians should be played differently, using their cheap feudal age to get archers sooner and use their cheap castle age to need less vills on food. And that’s why so many people suggested a buff of that bonus.

Italians shine in castle and imp, and their bonus help in that direction. But it also help for feudal fights, just not too much, because that’s not their main thing, which is fine.

Which are fine, they are a bit helped in feudal age, they got now cheaper ballistics and chemistry (both 2 important techs) and they got pavise, which put them in the position of being at the same level of viets, and even beating ethiopians xbows.

You want to buff them, buff their eco by allowing Italians to age up 2 vills sooner to feudal (20% age up) or by giving them SE (lol the only thing on what we all agree 11), so that their BBC better support them.

Not everything needs to be good for 1v1, there are a lot of decent UTs that can be used in 1v1, but still are way more situational. Don’t tell me that you get great wall every game, or orthodoxy, or yasama. All great techs, but situational. Silk road at least is used in every TG.

You may argue that some of those civs have better bonuses or UU, but italians too now are in a good spot.

Yes, and Italians can use the cheaper age up to skip that. Or to get a bit more units out. Both are good strategies.

On that I agree, this is a problem. Generic civs are always more difficult to use, you have a ton of options, but few things that strong. But now italians are in a better spot. UU were buffed, their eco is better. They don’t need a complete redesign, they just need some small tweaks.

They aren’t that bad anymore. They’ll always be weak on arabia, but that’s simply how the game works.

Their difficulty is that to use their bonus to the full extent you need to change and adapt your eco, and that isn’t easy for most of us. In theory, less food on aging up means less vills on food, and more on wood and gold for archers (or Tha same on food and more scouts), but it’s difficult to balance that out. That’s why I push for 20% cheaper age up, that way it becomes more easy to use that bonus even for common mortals like us.

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432

Ok here Italians lost, but for an error of the player, not because of the civ, still there are a couple of things worth to say.

  • The Italians cheap age up came in handy more and more times, especially in feudal (they kept up with mongols) and in imp (again, with a huge eco advantage for the mongols, they still aged up first).

  • Italians were able to both pressure on land and water. This is partially because mongols didn’t even try on land and just go for eco, but still a weak civ wouldn’t be able to do that.

  • GC are good even with just one castle. When the hussar raids began, there were just 2 GC, and Italians were able to produce by the end a decent number, enough to trade well against hussars, but of course not enough to win the game, for that it was too late.

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433

Speaking of the devil, here is an interesting video, and they talk a bit of the Italians too.

If I understand it correctly, they say that the re-balance of the Italians had its effect, and they now are a bit weaker on water but more solid on land, basing on the win-rate data (that aren’t yet on aoestats, so it’s probably something that only devs have).

But I also think, that he may implied that it’s not there yet, but this could be just my imagination.

They also kind of describe how they balance civs, which is interesting.

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434

There is. Either more armor MA or PA. If it is MA you need a lot though. I don’t really get why you are so bothered by two bonii having a similar effect, as what matters is how you play the civ in the end.

Earlier feudal is bad for your eco, it’s almost never worth it. See malay for a practical example.

They don’t. They are not bad, mind you, but they do not have a single outstanding trait in their civs in imp, except maybe cheaper BBCs. No paladin, no siege onager, no siege ram, average cavalry and infantry. Slightly better better archers and a unique unit which is hard to mass.

This does nothing for feudal. That’s from castle age onwards. Cheaper ballistic is helpful, but doesn’t kick in until mid-castle age (unis are still expensive). If unis were half price it would make more sense at least.

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435

Saw that too, it was a screw up from lireey there. GCs are no a bad units, all they need is a cheaper elite upgrade with reduced TT. Stats are fine.

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436

Agreed, but then we look at plumed archers or chukunu… And they’re coupled to civs with better ecos and its a reason for people pushing for better GCs…

Ratans as well…

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437

What bothers me is that +20%HP and +1/1 armor don’t have a similar effect, they have the same effect. If you want to buff pavise or give them a stackable bonus is fine by me. It not the buff they need, but at least is different than the viets bonus.

Not necessary, if you can advance 1 vill earlier now with italians, and thanks to the cheap age up still have the same eco as your opponent. The problem is that it’s difficult to correctly time it and balance your resources.

They have though good arbs (among top 5) FU skirms, champs and hussars, good monks and good gunpowder. If you give them SE they are fine.

I get it, what bothers people is that their outstanding traits comes in late castle and imp, which is way later than how most civs works. But that’s not a synonymous of bad.

Getting to feudal with more food and needing less to click to castle age do nothing? Yes it’s just a 3 time use bonus but we can’t either ignore it. The problem is that it takes a bit more of planning to use it correctly.

And with the new cheap uni techs I found that you can rush a uni as soon as you hit castle age and get ballistics way before other civs. So you don’t have necessary to wait until mid-castle age to have something.

Onestly, he massed a good number with just 1 castle. True that he probably already had ballistics, but still I think that now their TT is fine, and that video proves it. Agree on the EGC.

Plumed and Rattan though also belong to civs without good and flexible tech tree so they compensate for that. CKN instead are simple soo strong.

I personally think that GC, all things considered, and considering that italians also have another UU and a good tech tree, are in a good spot. They aren’t perfect, they could be better still, but they have no major issue anymore.

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438

i agree silk road isnt useless in TGs, but realistically, how many times is someone actually going to pick them for a TG? and even then, would having silk roads actually contribute to a win? as opposed to someone rather picking chinese, mayans or ethiopians? i definitely think silk roads can get some tweaking at least, if not swapped out completely and give them a weaker version of silk roads as a a civ bonus.

rough example:
civ bonus: trade units cost -30%.
imperial UT" provincial support": condos gain +2 dmg, and GC train 25% faster (or whatever just an example)

as it stands i dont think i would ever intentionally pick italy if i wanted to win a TG (unless its a water map)

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439

No that’s true, but if you pick them for other reasons or you go random you can be sure that you’ll always research silk road.

I don’t know, I think that changing the UTs isn’t the right approach, we will see, I have a feeling that they haven’t finished with italians, though they may want to wait another month or two before we see other changes.

440

on reddit the bros were saying the devs said they arent finished balancing a few civs, i think the example from the dev viet. if i find the article ill share it. but either way peeps were like " yay more balancing for bad civs"

but it does sound like they take the play stats into account for balancing (one factor)

also heres some new stats someone bro posted

https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/lm2nco/civilisation_1v1_performance_statistics/

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441

I think plumes are okay right now, chu ko nu could use a small nerf (like -5hp or slower TT), but imo buffing GC too much would be a bad. You would have an arbalester which counters cavalry plus extra armor from pavise…I think the range should stay the same, but maybe the elite versione could have a bit more hp or binus damage against cav. It’s just that the elite upgrade right now is absolutely not worth it, way better to invest those resources in more GCs.

I would really love to see something like this. I am not a big fan of UTs which are useless for 1vs1.

I honestly think italians are not that far from being a solid balanced civs, there are just a few more things that need some more tweaking. Devs are being more careful with buffs now (after some screw ups they did with some other civs), which is a good thing. It will probably take a couple more updates to the civ to be in a good spot.

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442

I read the article, and if I remember correctly from my statistics exam, those data actually are way more accurate than the aoestats data.

From what I see, italians are a bit underpowered, but not too much. So this further prove my point, that italians don’t need big buffs, but just small adjustments.

On that I agree.

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443

Quick question guys, answer me with just a yes or no without thinking to much or without diverting.

After the nerf of the dock techs discount (from 50% to 33%), do you think that the nerf on the fishing ships discount may be reversed back (from 64w to 60w)?

  • Yes
  • No

0 voters

And why?

444

Where is my i dont know option?

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