I think we cannot consider Sicilians a real water civ, so this is not a real problem imo
Not sure if the nerf is too much, but Franks got a really huge play rate. Then, nerfing early game eco is a big thing, let us see…
i think it kind of adds to their ability to be diverse (similar to the portos) except even more diverse with the ability to tech into corner case uni techs more cost effectively (like rushing BB twrs) it also helps them consistently getting ballistics and helping their cheap BBC come out even sooner… cheap BBC with SE might be too much. they have an extremely multi faceted composition late game, they can counter anything, it is just getting their and producing enough of those counters
GC, condo, BBC, onager, redemption + block printing, practically everything in the game has a FU counter producible by italy, its literally only their sub par eco.
they were OP on water(probably still are), if anything the vikings should also be nerfed, their shouldnt be an auto pick of 2different civs on open water maps. imo it was needed and i always supported the dock nerfs (and contested bagi’s reasoning)
i think they are still weaker than most civs in the early game, but considering how bad they were, they have come an extremely long way… condo buff, GC buff, uni buffs, pavise?
i dont think the GC should get a range buff. if anything only damage or hp(preferably hp, as it fits their concept), and tt… the moment you give them range, they become even more difficult to counter late game by certain civs (also why the chook chook has 4 base range, but the CKN needs to be toned down anyway)
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Pavise was buffed? But I agree that the civ is now in a complete differente spot.
Cheap masonary and architecture also comes in handy. For SE I it’s a pity they they don’t have it just for the 33% discount, but they don’t need it, neither would make them too strong.
Maybe having a cost increase could finally address that.
On water they need to be tested, but I think that they are mainly fine, some really small buff may be required but nothing too crazy.
I just hope that we don’t get back to viking war, not because vikings are OP, but because people may miss interpret the last patch and see Italians as inferior to vikings.
No sorry it wasnt, its just that it affected condos, so more of a repetition on my part.
yeah i think it would be amazing if they had SE with discount, which applies to a BBC which has a discount i dont think there’s any unit that fits all these descriptions… discounted with discounted tech and FU, the closest we get is the mayan arb, but the civ has a massive tech hole(no true heavy cav, sucky navy, no champ, no hard counter for siege ie no bbc AND no redemption) due to that, whereas italians dont have any tech hole(as in lack of counter/key unit) so makes it even worse stacking all of that
yeah i think cost increase is good
i just played the new coastal forest map in ranked
and just had probably my favourite victory of all time. and it was using italy. opponent tried to drop a forward rax in dark age, so of course i walled it completely, so he started flaming.
he went for a tc drop with twrs and rams, eventually took my tc down, but in the meantime i was covering the water in docks, so i managed to make a crazy come back while this guy flamed me for the whole ~40min game… non stop flaming.
the italian uni bonus REALLY helped me. that map has very little gold if you get cut off from the south, so i had access to none(except trade) after losing my TC, so having the uni buff my building hp, give me ballistics for skirms and then chemstry quickly (which would allow BBC spam) all came in handy…
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Ahh ok, no it’s that since I already missed pieces of this patch I thought that I missed one more 11
I think that SE won’t make them OP (even with the 33% discount), but considering that their late game it’s already pretty strong it won’t either help on their main issues.
Mmm now I just want to play the new Italians even more…
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I think it’s alright.
What it’s alright?..
I do not think it is what the civ need. Italians are too weak in feudal. However:
- it would be very meaningful that the university civ has the only important tech you can really miss
- this would give Italians a pop efficient unit, which now they miss
- a FU Italian BBC would be weaker than a Portuguese one, while costing the same gold. The difference would be the wood cost
- having a very good BBC would justify much more such a weak early game
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agreed,if anything i think an earlier bonus could be explored… and now that the new civs have set a precedent it opens up options for a variety of unexplored bonuses… like who would have imagined a civ bonus of techs appearing an age earlier…
I think Italians are actually a really good civ on land. They have a lot of bonuses, and such a versatile tech tree you can go archers, stable and good infantry. They lack of halbadier but they get GC which are solid.
It is nice that sotl it his recent video says exactly this.
Italians got buffed where there were quite weak, but the problem is that there have remained where they are too weak.
Still Italians have to play the whole feudal age with +75f as the only bonus. None is so bad…
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I agree they are weak then. In feudal cumans and sicilly have zero eco advantage,not sure who else. If anything cumans have to use even more eco to take advantage of their inevitable bonus.
As in if you pressure a double tc cuman he will have even less to defend with than an eco boosted civ.
If cuman don’t double tc, then the only eco bonus they have is free husbandry. That’s a lot less than Italians by that point. And sicilly is even further behind. What i mean is sometimes a powerful military advantage can still stop gap a lack of eco early on. And then when the civs eco bonus actually kicks in then things balance out.
In addition to the 75+ food saved in dark age, castle age upgrade saves another 120 food and 30 gold. That is, you can use these resources for military instead of worrying about saving resources with castle age. Ir you can abuse the market and go to castle very fast (like saracens). So maybe it’s not the strongest eco bonus, but it’s something. Some civs like turks, magyars, dont have significant eco bonuses in dark or feudal age anyways.
What is funny is that some players in RBW3 forgot about the age up discount and age up as normal 11
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It is not a matter of eco only. It is a matter of bonuses. Sicily may have no eco bonuses, but they do have a very solid military bonus, e.g., to win evert skyrm fight or engage scouts vs spears.
Cumans have a huge potential from the second TC.
Yes, but it arrives at the end of feudal age. For the whole age you do not have any advantage.
Well, they at least have a military one. Magyars have a free tech and discounted scouts, while turks have strong scouts and faster mining.
Italians miss both eco and military bonuses. They have to take the whole feudal age with +75f.
So even a (feudal) military bonus can be good, like faster moving archers or faster attack units.
I don’t think that they new a new strong bonus Italians as they are now, if anything they could give them a bonus that the university itself cost less, or that it can be built when you are aging up to castle age (having it built in feudal age would be fun and historically accurate but OP as ****).
But I would stil prefer to see them having the cheaper age up buffed, since it’s probably the bonus that would give the most flexibility out of all the others.
Yeah, considering that SE would be worth only for trebs and BBC, it could help their late game. Just for you to know, it would probably cost 400w and 335f (instead of 600w and 500f).
I’ll admit that this would be super strong, but it would affect only land maps, since SE doesn’t affect water units.
I agree on the first part, though, now they have 2 bonus for arabia maps, last week they had just the cheap age up. Their tech tree is good, but it’s difficult to make a good use of it without any consistent bonus. Bizzantines and chinese for example are way better than Italians at using their open tech tree thanks to their flexible bonuses.
I disagree on the GC though, since it’s so difficult to mass that often arbs are preferred.
I do not understand, we’re they buffed or not in your opinion? I mean, I get that most civs nowdays received feudal buff, but italians didn’t have anything for castle age either…
I think that now that they save something in castle age, they can decide to redirect both the 75f and and the 120f and 30g to the feudal age (by clicking at the same time but having to stockpile less resources) which makes that most resources of the average civ.
Then in castle age you have the cheaper uni to help you out. Of course it will take time, but we can try to develop a new meta for them now.
That’s where I disagree, you see it as “you get those resources when you click to castle age”, instead you should see it as “I need less food to click up”. This means that you can age up with less vills on food during feudal (maybe because you are going archers and have more vills on wood) or that you can train a couple of scout more before clicking up.
I know it’s not easy, but those aren’t necessarily resources for the castle age. You also can see it as “I get some vills for free” you click up later, but have way better eco in the new age.
Again, that’s not necessarily how you have to see the bonus. You can see it as a dark age bonus instead of a feudal bonus, that you can have permanently a vill less on food (that it’s also free because it’s covered by the 75 food saving) that is dedicated to just wall your base from the early game (and even if nerfed walling is still a strong meta).
That’s why now I push for a 20% discount on age ups, because it would further improve their development of their unique meta, giving them more flexibility in that direction.
Then look at berbers, they just have faster moving vills before castle age, which isn’t a good bonus arguably, but they are still a solid civ. Bizz too don’t save that much in feudal age (you have usually the equivalent of a spear or a couple of skirms for free…). Malay just age up faster, slavs farms usually kicks in during castle age, and so on… But all those civ then are good in castle age, Italians can be the same, they just need to develop their own meta.
I’m not saying that they are perfect, but let’s try them out with different strategies before suggesting completely new bonuses.
I would settle for the new bonus that they get, and if it won’t be enough, buff them starting from what they already have. It’s unlikely that they’ll give them completely new bonuses.
Yeah I don’t think that the sicilians will have a long life… the lack of eco bonus may be fine, it’s partially compensate by their decent scout rush (take half damage from spears) but they are super weak to tower rush, and don’t have anything particularly strong to follow in castle age…
Their eco bonus of more food as the game goes one is nice, and both a food and a wood bonus, but it takes time to have it effect, and the problem is to get there.
I don’t see their archers/skirms as that special, what they make them good on countering archers is their PA, not their bonus damage. I think that having cheaper skirms, or with more range, speed, and so on it better than Sicilians bonus.
It’s too early to say that Italians need further buff without looking at the upcoming win rate, except elite GC should need a buff.
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yeah its definitely a slow burn bonus, and if anything is more wood than food (since the rebuild time on farms is fairly a small factor on the food income, like incans)
thats it! i was just quickly mentioning cumans and sicily earlier but i knew there were more
magyar free attack and cheap scouts means on arabia they definitely have an eco bonus. with the nerfto walls on top of the already open arabia, the meta imo is drush, scrush or m@a, magyar definitely benefit all 3 of those, and has arguably the best scrush now that franks have been nerfed
something else that others have mentioned, but maybe to be more specific is to give italians skirmishers from the rax. the meta is the 3 above builds, the potential counters to all 3 is quick walling, the counter to quick walling is archers.
italians will then be able to much easier counter the counter to their defensive build needed to get to castle ASAP to benefit from their civ bonuses. it also encourages diverse builds (archery ranges are freed up from training skirms, so you can always train em from your rax) or it opens up a build where you dont go double range, and instead save that wood for the university, and train archer + skirm from rax and range. meaning you get the discounted ballistics much sooner.
it doesnt help too much in the late game where italy is already strong and thus shouldnt be overbearing…
are very strong with scrushing due to being able to tank tc shots and thus snipe or force idle time even around the tc, and are much better vs archer civs, forcing them to make spears. on top of their higher gold generation being good for a m@a pressure (which is very good with the open map and weak walls to punish greedy players)
(and as a reminder chemistry + bracer + arb is a ton more expensive than plate barding so there is a very real existence of cases where turk hussars are almost immune to arrow fire with 7PA vs 8 to 9 damage)
and thats ignoring non archer civs who dont upgrade their pierce attack allowing turk scouts and later hussars to literally just run around freely ignoring tc fire completely
Point is that italians were struggling in the early game (on land) and the univerisyt discount, while nice, does nothing to help with that. Since the devs nerfed the water bonus, I think they could have given italians an extra 20% age up discount.
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