In the early stages it is less resources. In the whole game it probably does. But it is not a lot.
I would prefer +1PA if it affects skyrms as well.
If it affects just archers line, well… it would be way weaker, unless it is something like +1PA in feudal and +1PA in castle (+2 total). The final arb should have +3PA considering pavise. This does not make it particularly better vs skyrms, but much better vs other archers. A weaker rattan, similar to malian champ vs huskarls
+1PA was meant to give more value to pavise, and a the same time to help them a bit on feudal archer rush.
Overall rattan will still be better, but at least if the Italians player builds a castle and pay for pavise, his arbs at least would be better than the viets arbs with their free bonus.
However, I like too the 40% faster TT for foot archers, I think that overall it would be the more flexible bonus.
Free archer armors would be the weakest, but safest bonus.
Your idea of training archers at other build onestly is dangerous, if I build a barracks or a stable, and then I need some spears of some knights fast, I can’t have them busy with archers.
I think that the archers should be trained at buildings that aren’t supposed the train other units, like a market, but even there in the end it’s only 175w delayed.
When the game reach castle, it’s common to just simply spam ranges/stables/barracks without counting them.
you don’t try to counter them since you’r arbalest would do that aswell, you build a unit with a good matchup against almost all other gold units.
You said that GC wins agains arbs, and on 1:1 ratio without micro that’s true, but that’s an high unlikely situation, because arbs will both out-number and out-micro GC.
GC aren’t a bad unit, but they are highly specialized and not really versitile, however they would perform decently vs cavalry if only you could mass them enough.
But the problem is there from the introduction of italians with the forgotten DLC, and they still have to fix it so onestly I think we will need see some love for them.
Even GC beats arbalest, I think it is very normal and reasonable. At least GC is a unqiue unit of an archer civ that cost more than arbalest. Longbowman, chu ko nu, Rattan archer, Plumed Archer all beat generic arbalest. I dont see any problem of GC beating arbalests. It doesn’t make GC OP at all. Besides, GC is produced in castle with 22s, 19s (elite) while arbalest is produced in archery range with 27s. You can always build more ranges than castle. GC is the foot archer that takes the longest to mass.
GC acts as a counter unit which should be produced quickly to react against opponent’s cavalry. GC Training time should be fixed. In addition, its upgrade cost should be reduced or at least make it worth to upgrade by buffing the elite version stats. GC fix is even more needed than the early boost for Italians imo.
Would you please tell me the reason that you are against 15% cheaper farms and fishing ships besides historical reason? How do medieval Italian states sustain their population? By trading? Or their own agriculture can support them?
I can bring just a single reason. It is a bit too weak. It is similar to the food discount (10% on all military units).
One time I built 12, just to spam Skirms fast enough to deal with a Huns player, back in AoC.
The problem is that it’s a misleading information, since in reality standard arbs both out-number and out-micro GC, so in the reality GC never wins vs arbs.
Completely agree, but it’s been a lot of time since the problem was bring up, and still nothing has been done.
Also because it would be a weaker teutons bonus, that was also buffed in DE because 33% wasn’t enough, so I don’t see how just 15% could help the Italians being less than the half of what teutons get.
By trading mostly, then by fishing on the coast.
Even during the roman republic, the peninsula wasn’t able to sustain itself, and heavily rely on the grain from north Africa.
During the middle age, because of the famine that spread after the collapse of the Roman trade routes, only when those were re-established population start to grow again and cities flourished.
Italians were really good with the crossbow, in most cities Tha training I using it was mandatory, and their crossbowmen were renowned in all Europe and middle east.
So a bonus regarding xbows and arbs makes the most sense.
Fine, but all the good bonus have already been set:
You may overlap with viets adding extra resistance or with Ethiopians, adding extra attack (or letting archer to shot 2 arrows).
+1 attack would be definetly better than +1 PA…
What about Movement speed? Since Cav and Cav archers are not really an option, they lack speed in general.
This can be a very strong bonus in skilled hands.
Or just give all their archery a +2 attack bous against other foot archers. This would make them capable of actually fight off other archer civs, they formerly had no chance against.
I prefer to buff movement speed of organ gun up to 1 rather than Italian archers. Fast-moving foot archer is borderline OP like plumed archer.
Perhaps some wood/gold bonus to aid the archer-line production and faster age up. For example. cheaper trading for limited no. of time per age like Ethiopians getting resources when reaching new age. Plus elite GC +1 atk/+1 range is good enough.
I never ruled that out, but people see it OP, and I partially share the worries.
+1PA overlap a bit with viets, but pavise and the viets bonus already overlap, and in the worst way, since pavise isn’t really worth it when you look at it with this prospective.
GC needs their training time reduced, their stats are fine, they rely most on the anti cavalry bonus, and that’s fine, they are mainly a counter unit.
Italians already have a limited times bonus, the cheap age up, and it doesn’t help them thay much.
They either need some more consistent, or something that gives them some advantages other some resources saved, like the free armor allows you to out-tech you opponent for a bit.
What about they would get all 3 set of armors for free (archers, cavalry, infantry), I know that it’s a lot, maybe too much, but this is actually a bonus that would play well with their flexible tech tree, and with their UT (pavise) and UU (condos).
There are several archer UUs with +1 attack over the archer line. None of them is considered OP.
This is a very good proposal, now Italians loose both to archer and cavalry civs (considering how bad the GC is)… at least something vs archers
Yes I know, CKN have 2 more attack and 4 more arrows, but the problem is that none of those units are trained at ranges and are so easily massed from feudal.
It really wouldn’t make that much sense, vs archers Italians would still use skirms, both because they would have more bonus and PA.
PA would be a more flexible bonus, not because make you xbows better vs archers, but because it allows them survive a bit more vs skirms.
Thb a decent bonus to the worst civ in the game would make it at most decent.
But we should be careful to avoid overbuff, italians aren’t an arabia civs and shouldn’t become one.
What about all armor tech for free?
I expect they get extra resources through buying and selling. Extra resource definitely helps faster age up.
This is similar to Spanish but far more powerful version. No gold cost for blacksmith helps them save up 1400+ gold given Spanish has all blacksmith upgrades. Free blacksmith upgrade helps them greatly in late game but does not help faster aging . Archer-line blacksmith upgrade cheaper cost is more acceptable but again no effect on earlier aging.
It sounds a lot, even if the civ is really underpowered atm…
It is a bonus I like tbh in the philosophy. I think Italians should get a bonus making them versatile, since it is difficult to make them a decent archer civ, the good bonuses are already taken.
+1 attack without any eco will leave the civ at most average. The other option, which is similar (but actually a bit weaker in the majority of the situations) is shooting +1 (inaccurate) arrow dealing 1 pierce damage only.
But them you have to nerf the water bonuses. There are very few options for an eco bonus not affecting water:
Spanish save gold on all tech, that helps them easily transition into their FU trash even when gold runs out, and helps a bit in the early ages.
This Italians with this bonus would still have to research the attack of infantry/cavalry and the attack-range of archers.
I know that it’s a lot of resources, I’m not sure myself about it, that why I wanted feedback.
The idea came because after all, condos are still an below average unit, so maybe removing the need to research armor (you would still need pavise) would improve a bit their condo rush.
It’s more about the time saved than the resources.
You don’t get extra resources, you trade, it’s different, and they would still be a lot underpowered after that.
If it’s limited to one the archer armor then it should be free techs without the need of a blacksmith, otherwise it would be a weak bonus.
Bu archers are however easy to mass, easier then other units.