this is pretty much what i proposed with the “archery range units and genoese crossbows get +1 MA from feudal” suggestion. adding pavise to pikes could be interesting since they lack halberdiers at least they could get a cheaper way to counter cavalry than genoese crossbows
Discounted walls and defensive structures are an inca thing (and mayan, and franks). Discounted pallisades are a chinese one.
The extra armor on buildings could be fine only if they dont affecy fundations
I wouldn’t relay on walling, I like way more your armor proposal. Or other archer buff if you prefer. Extra attack or speed are difficult to balance but indded possible
Why not PA as well? You can also make the bonus +1/1 and pavise +1/0, in the late game it would be the same as +1 MA. I like the direction you are going anyway
Buff Condos and Genoese (Elite price reduction)
About the “TC techs increase villager HP”, would that include age advancements?
Extra HP vill is possible, but you still are pushed away from res if the opponent press you. But the idea of extra something per tech is cool. Maybe we can use the same approach (extra something per tech) to buff a bit the military?
The thing is that this bonus gives more time to react without villagers dying. It is like the extra training speed for skirms/spears. This allows you to react better.
However, extra HP even if it is only a little is always useful for aggression (Tower rushing)
i am not savvy enough to know if increasing both armor would be OP. to me personally it wouldn’t, since armor is not that important for archers and even with the +1/+1 from pavise, then italians archers would be more tanky than vietnamese one, but at a much later stage of the game (late castle vs early feudal) and behind a paywal (castle + UT) so it would be fair for me, but maybe i’m wrong and would be too much
thing is i do not know if a tad more HP would help you that much. i mean, if we use +2 per tech outside aging up as a benchmark, you would have only +2 from loom in feudal since you are unlikely to research town watch or wheelbarrow until late feudal. even if it was more HP, would still be worse than what khmer gets with simple “villager can garrison in houses” as a reaction option
also, it really does not fit for me for italians to have chonky villagers. italians are not hisotrically known for being bulky or phisically stronger than average, but for technological advancements and wealth. at that, maybe increasing armor could be more on-theme, and something like “villagers get +1/+1 armor each age from feudal” would be unique without making them Supremacy level villager
i still do like more the idea of a buff for military which could fix both the early game land weakness and the non-existent archer focus until late castle, and the +1 armor (being melee or both) would help by making archers and skirms tank 2 more hits from scouts and 1 more from MAA, comparable to what vietnamese gets, but without allowing xbows to stand a mangonel shot in castle unlike vietnamese bonus
Remember Inca Boxing Vills?
With 1/1 Armor in Feudal congratilations, you just make Italians new Incas. Without investing in Blackamith, and with faster Feudal. Enjoy Italian Noboru Rush!
No, buffing Vills is not the way. Italians werent known for strongmen, or even massive uprisings or fighting with every man for country/religion.
I doubt it will. Still tankiness is very limited for archers. Other options for archers are:
- +1 attack (or +1 arrow which is a bit weaker if it does not meele damage)
- extra speed (rattan level, it should be like a squire spear)
- discount on a single res
- trainable somewhere else
- no frame delay (it would be terrible for the animation)
I tend to agree. I like the archer direction. Do you belive in armors? Other creative buffs?
no here “harder to play” means “harder to play”, most people don’t even know that “fast Ballistics” is a thing even for example.
which is infact why i said a buff to villagers does not suite the italians in the first place, so i agree
This proposals are so broken with the current meta 11
God the discussion on the Italians balance is even more polarized than when I left…
Why don’t you both try to find a middle ground?
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a buff for Italians doesn’t have to be an eco one or doesn’t have to happen in dark/feudal.
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Italians aren’t a perfect civ by a wide margin, and even if on high elo games with perfect timing they can be good, that doesn’t mean that they can be better.
Why don’t people who are against buff try a bit to think of some way to buff them that doesn’t make them OP instead of ruling every suggestion out and just finding confermation for their arguments.
And why people who want to buff it can’t actually think through an idea that doesn’t make Italians the next mayans or incas or chinese, but try to think something small that actually conserves the identity of the civ.
Also, on a side note, this is still an historical game, so maybe potential bonuses should be historically justified, since that seems to be the direction that the devs are going for.
which is infact why i proposed a mild +1MA for archery range and genoese. would definitly not be broken 100% sure, but would also help their feudal archer play a bit and would be unique, and follow the italian identity of good technology, and double down on pavise. a +1/+1 armor would make their archer as tanky as vietnamese in feudal but would not follow that well in castle and later when vietnamese crossbows could still tank 1 extra hit from knights, so i think it would be a good buff for feudal, that would make pavise more interesting as well doubling down on armor
also genoese elitè upgrade buff and condos bonus vs eagles feels like very needed and simple changes, not gonna make them mayans level by any means
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I think an Italian buff has to be effective by early castle age at the very least.
Their mediocre early to mid game is the problem I believe
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yeah i agree
also UT could be looked at since pavise is just worse than what vietnamese get for free basically in terms of survivability for archer and you get it behind a paywall, and silk armor does absolutely nothing in 1 vs 1
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Yeah I’m not suggesting a post imp buff of course, but it doesn’t have to be a feudal one either…
I wasn’t actually talking about that, but the problem stays…
Early to mid castle is a good compromise, or a weak early bonus, not something “chinese-level”.
As you said, it would put Italians on pair with viets, so they would be more like the viets. Yeah viets have more HP and PA instead of MA, but the point would be the same… making them more similar to against scouts in the early game.
I liked better the discounts on archer techs, it can be applied to just the archer line it including TR is too much.
what is sure is that italians need something for their archer play otherwise they are just plain worse than many other non archer civ. like look at khmer, they have FU archers while also having good knight support and way better eco, but the examples are really lots. i do not think they need anithing chinese level, nowhere near that, but i do think they need a little extra, even if it come at the cost of some water prowess
also i would like to see pavise apply to skirms or spearmen line as well since it’s not that impactful for ranged units
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