Italians: In need of a slight buff?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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I Hear you: “Italians are pretty strong they are in no need of a buff”
I understand, if you ask me nothing is comparable to Italians on water. And on Land they have pretty good bonuses too: Cheaper advances, Genoese are like arbalests, but with bonus against cavalry, Condottieri are basically champions without needing to tech into it, gunpowder is cheaper…

But all of these bonuses really need post imp to really be effective, Condo-Genoese is a pretty beefy combo, but it requires all blacksmith tech, and in Castle Age Italias are sub par, really.
Especially againts Halberdier/Siege Ram Civs… If italians are attacked during their castle age with rams there is really nothing they can do.

I play a lot of italians (almost only them) and I find that once Rams and halbs are out, for them it’s nearly impossible to win. Their cavalry sucks in castle age and is easily countered by pikemen, if you tech into infantry to save your skin you’ll never have gold to go Imp or you’ll have no resources to tech into archery, if you have a lot of genoese (maybe some CavArch?) the Rams basically nullify them. If you manage to get to Imp, you only get Pikemen and cavalier, not nearly enough to counter Siege Rams and Halbs. Condottieri are good agains Siege Ram civs, but they come in only in Imp, when most of the damage is done, Hussars have a similar issue, and die too easily to Halbs. Bombard cannons could work with some archers, but you might as well have already lost when you get to chemistry (remember that your worst time is Castle age, where you spend like crazy to survive) All these solutions are really expensive, while rams and haberdiers are incredibly cheap for the enemy…

If you think about it then, Italians are Almost impossible to bring to victory against Goths… Their infantry will be out much earlier then your Condottieri, and stronger, they basically ignore gunpowder and genoese are a joke to them… also their infantry is stronger than Italians Cav. So Goths are basically impossible. Yes you have to catch them early, but italians aren’t really a fast civ…

So what would make this civ not superior, but at least give it a chance against Siegeram and Halbs civ?

I have 3 possible Ideas

  • Allow condottieri in Castle Age (I don’t really like this one, Condos are really strong and would be too OP in Castle Age, without having some sort of “non-Elité” version of them.

  • Give Italians Siege Rams or SO (Could work, The rams could be useful against the enemy rams with a ton of micro, using Archers for the halbs, would make defending against this composition feasible, but not easy)

  • Give Italians Haberdiers (This one I think would be the best. It’s not game breaking and it levels the playing field quite a bit, if you think about it, Ita Cav sucks, and their Infantry needs Post Imp to become decent, not amazing, but decent, they only have Archers before post imp. Even Britons get Halbs!!!)

  • If giving Halbs is too much for infantry, I think anyone would agree that Italians could renounce Champions…

I I would like to know what you guys think, right now I feel like Italians against Rams and Pikes are basically a worst version of britons…

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I want to write about third idea;

Every archer civilization has Halberdier. So I don’t think it’s bad idea.

I need to write Genoese Crossbowman has bonus damage vs cavalry, I am not sure it’s enough or not.

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GC needs to train faster for one thing.
for two i’d give GC (Elite) 1 more range.
for three i’d give Italians some sort of early game military bonus. just not sure what.

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Yeah they are

These are imperial age units and this combination could easily countered by condos am i wrong? In castle age LS’s are the answer and very cost effective imo besides you can always add mangonels.

These units u are asking for are also imperial units so how can they help Italians in Castle Age?

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In my opinion, the problem with Italians are their civ bonuses, they feel bland (all of them are discounts and 2 of them are only useful on water maps).

  • Dock technologies are 50% cheaper.
  • Fishing Ships are 15% cheaper.
  • Gunpowder units are 20% cheaper.
  • Advancing to the next Age is 15% cheaper.

Perhaps we can add an additional bonus (that isn’t just a straight up discount), that can help the civ a little bit in the earlier stages of the game. Cheaper fishing ships or cheaper gunpowder units could be changed into something more interesting.

Given that the November patch is close, I’m not sure if talking about Italians needing a buff is worth discussing right now.

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Why not free crossbow upgrade, is perhaps the only one unused.
Maybe the powerspike is colossal with this bonus so not sure.

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Before they become Halbs and siegeram they are still dangerous for italians, getting a great powerspike in Imp, so that it’s too late for Condos. Remember at that point you probably have 0 infantry and need to create it from zero, all of their Pikes and Rams will become SiegeRams and Habs and they’ll still be able to add, since it’s so cheap.

Having halberdiers or Siegeram would make the investment into castleage worthwhile, justifying an early switch to infantry instead of waiting for Imp to get even 1 Infantry unit out

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Archer-line +1 pierce armor, starting in the Feudal Age

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Just imagine spending 900 food, 750 gold to get what?! To get +5 hp on the elite UU. Frankly! This is the most stupid useless upgrade that i have ever seen!!! For me i think the italians are good in general but they need to buff their UU, and about all gunpowder civs in general i wrote a post before to allow them to make chemistry in the castle age so at least they have something special in their castle age

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Archers are already top tier for Italians, and I think it’s ok, thay are weaker against siege civs, and goths, but my point is that they simply don’t stand a chance agaisnt ram/pike wich is very common and cheap. Buffing their archers won’t help against pikes nor Rams…

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It’s not only that, it also gets more range and attack, but yeah, 900 food is a lot. I would ask for a lower price, but i think the priority is to give Italians even a fighting chance against Ram/Pikes

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They have FU Champions and Condos to destroy Rams.

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Why? If you are facing with a civ can push with pike&ram combo and see it’s coming shouldn’t you consider infantry in the first place?

These upgrades cost 1600food&600gold in total that’s enough for army of Long Swords to counter them. Your argument about Italians are week against pike&ram/halb&s.ram isn’t very solid imo. Italians may have a weakness but it’s not this.

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Because in feudal you normally go archers against Infantry civs, Assuming you get all the upgrades, making the switch in castle age can be costly… or slow.

But I see your point, I havent had any luck with the Militia Line playing italians, having a wood/Gold economy for feudal archers. I might try something different, But I still feel it is too difficult to pull off, especially against Goths, there Italians either destroy in Feudal or they lose, badly

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as said before, Switching into militia line can be very costly and slow, if you didn’t invest in it since feudal (hard to justify with Italians)

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Condotiero got buffed last balance patch, they are broken in water maps.

So i don’t think italians are going to get more buffs for now,the civ is not bad it is actually really good if well used, their initial discount allows you to queue one more sc or start the agression faster, so it is not bad it is just not as great as others, but it compensates with the water bonuses, if they somehow nerf the water bonus which is a must, then you can justify a buff for their early economy, something like boosting even more the age up discount, about their UU GC it is quite strong with bbc on the back and hussar as meat shield, reducing training sounds reasonable considering it should be weak vs other archers, more range or armor is a bad idea.

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Well for worst scenario you could snipe pikes with archers and kill rams with vils that should do the job i guess.

Yeah it’s a difficult match up for archer civ for sure but it isn’t impossible as you mentioned.

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It is not slow, even Longswords kill those pushes and you have Condotteiros.

On open maps he will not play Full Pikemen vs Crossbows in Castle Age, so both players have to switch units.

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A big part of the game is counter play. The switch to LS really isn’t as expensive as you make it sound wrt dealing with ram + pikes. Remember you don’t need FU LS to fight that build. Part of the strength of a civ like italy is its open tech tree. You’ll just have to deal with tech changes as opposed to a single strong build like britons or franks.

For someone who apparently plays Italy so much you don’t know your uu very well. If you aren’t fighting cav this is completely false. Range is false either way.

In comparison a mangudai for roughly the same tech fee, gets more damage against evrything,AND more damage against siege and more armour. Damage is the most important thing on an archer not hp.

How do britons fight goths? How do mayans fight goths?

Picking the counter civ to archer civs is like the worst example you could make to justify a civ needing buffs.

Isn’t it something like 70% or more of all matches are played on arabia? So because Italy is OP in an extremely niche situation they deserve to be weak elsewhere? Weird logic…

I think this is the best idea. Especially if the mil bonus doesn’t affect water play (which shouldn’t be too hard)

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Well, one discussed bonus in summer were the extra armor for archers, but koreans will receive the extra armor upgrades. Maybe extra melee armor (almost useless in feudal except against scouts).
Another early military bonus would be: First militia is free, or barrack spawn a free militia after being built. Only one militia per game. I am not convinced about this.
Military building discounts…
Faster wall building…
I don’t know, honestly.

Instead, I would suggest free elite skirm upgrade.

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