One of my favorite civs is Italians tho’ Im a filthy casual that mostly plays against AI.
I was watching one of Spirit of the Law’s videos and he commented that Italians mostly represent the naval powers of Genoa and Venice and don’t lean in much on the Papal territory influence (say, there is no bonus for Monasteries).
The faster age up is neat but the resources saved don’t amount to much. And despite being an Archer civ there isn’t a big bonus or discount that helps the archer line. The Genoese Xbowman is a unit that helps take on cavalry but it’s gated behind the Castle. Also the lack of the Halberdier trash unit hurts long term.
What could be added or removed to represent the Italian territories more broadly (Milan, Papal territories, Kingdom of Naples,etc) ?
One of the bonuses, along with the one in the Dock (and more recently also in the University) that has allowed them to be a constant top civ on water map.
Nothing. If the devs ever want to, they could add a UU ship and redo the dubbing.
Every civilization focuses on an specific period or region to represent the civ as a wholeI dont think theres anything wrong with Italians as they are right now
I would personally get rid of the fishing ship discount and either increase the age up discount, ibcrease the university and dock discount or both things at the same time
The fishing ship was added to a civ that was designed for water already, with every bonus except for the newly added armor bonus being useful for water maps. Imo the fishing discount has forced Italy to be mediocre in land and OP in water
Honestly the fish discount would fit better for civs who are military focused on land, such as Berbers
Fishing ship bonus to a civ that isn’t even naval but did rely on fish economy. If it went to a Lake Chad based African civ and their navy was akin to Malians it would make sense because that lake is full of fish
And a discount on a few university techs (ballistics and chemistry). In my experience, Italians are a timing-based civ that is quite flexible (flexible enough that they can pull off almost any strategy). And Gen bows are quite dominant against cavalry civs. In late game, discounted BBCs, FU hussars, and a ranged unit backline are an incredibly solid composition.
I’ll admit, Italian archery range isn’t the best, but they are flexible enough in other areas that they don’t really need a better archery range. I personally don’t think Italians need any changes, but I also haven’t played them since the naval rework.
Fishing ship discount is what keeps their Feudal age on water maps from being practically generic - removing it would kill them as a naval civ. Age up discount is sufficient for a few unique fast castle builds (ex: skip loom, sell 100 stone, and don’t mine any gold until castle age) and is certainly nice for getting up to imperial age. By itself it isn’t much, but it works in combination with other discounts.
The dock and university discount was actually decreased with the recent naval rework - I think they were afraid that adding so many naval techs at the university would make Italians OP on water maps (I personally suspect that the decreased costs for the war ship upgrades made the decrease unnecessary, but I haven’t played Italians since the naval rework)
The discount was added when the civ didnt have a university discount and had only 10% cheaper age ups. I think considering how many times the devs have been trying to nerf Italian water and prop them up on land to insatisfactory result
Giving them a 20% discount in age ups and 50% cheaper dock and university techs would bea good thing to test at least.
And i will be honest the water meta in general needs a bit of a shake up, it feels like the threshold to be a viable water civ has never been higher. Portuguese are a joke
Italians are already doing fine on land maps - haven’t needed any buffs there since pavise was turned into a civ bonus and they received pirotechnia. And they used to have 50% cheaper dock techs (which was really strong on water maps - they changed it to 33% discount on dock and university techs, which shifted some of their naval strength to land). 50% dock techs probably won’t be as strong now as it was back then, but with the university combined into the bonus 50% is obviously way too much (just as it was back then).
My own opinion of the civ:
Open maps: a bit of a weak point. The cheaper age up isn’t much, but it does save them 75 food for Feudal age (almost enough for an additional scout, or the food portion of horse collar). Extra archer armor also buffs their archers a bit, especially against other ranged units. And they can still do a perfectly respectable scout rush. Their flexibility is a strong point, so they don’t have to go archers. Nowhere near top tier, but they have just enough to keep themselves viable.
Closed maps: fairly solid. Cheaper age ups allows them extra fast castle builds, and they have a strong late game comp to build towards (gold unit backline, FU hussars, and discount BBCs), with their backline being very adjustable. Also have solid monks, even if they lack any monk bonuses. Italians are one of the few civs with both FU hussars and FU arbs, which is quite an advantage. Strong on closed maps, but not top tier.
Nomad: if a hybrid map, then building a dock early for discounted fishing ships makes them a strong (arguably top tier) nomad civ. If pure land, then it’s like their open map gameplay.
Hybrid maps: historically a strong point of the civ, uncertain how the water rework affects them. Fishing ship discount gives them a good economy for their early game on these maps, and their late game is still quite solid. Should be top tier or at least close to it.
Water maps: historically a strong point of the civ (often being top tier naval civ), uncertain how the water rework affects them.
If there’s any disadvantage from becoming more accurate (and from what I recall from Youtubers’ testing, it’s a small buff overshadowed by the pass-through damage), it’s more than made up for by the pass-through damage.