A lot of Civs getting their boosts. Alot more new UU. I think it’s time devs give byzantines a REAL eco bonus (and may be remove their free town patrol). But keep their tech tree.
Also, It’s time Cata upgrade cost be addressed or Logistica should affect ALL/Cata+Paladins.
Agree??
Pls upvote and share your thoughts
Ooh Byzantines are my 2nd favorite civ, so I do relish discussion on them.
Agreed.
Nah I think this is good since it promotes them as a befensive civ.
Nah by the time you have enough funds to support a catephract/Paladin army, you could just as well hold off on production for a few minutes to save up for the tech. Such a powerful tech should have some sacrifice added to it. And if you reach the time where you start to consider aquireing Logistica , it means your city’s defence is ample enough to withold attacks untill you can afford the tech.
Logistica also gives a uniqe trait to the Catephract thus Paladin should be slighly weaker then the UU, so no Logistica for them please.
There main issue seems like their start. So there could be two solutions:
I think i will somehow buff their early game. They just loose too many game in the early game. I dont think we need to buff there late game. Its win rate is already above 50% and by buffing their early game, they also reach the late game much stronger, so that will probably go up too by buffing their early game.
Logistica affecting paladins is a bad idea. And giving Byzantines with their insane late game a great eco bonus is a bad idea
I proposed all resource +25 at start long ago. And I think I’ll stick to it.
If anything I would give them 50 g. But idk, byznatines are already quite good in certain maps. It’s just you need a lot of game experience to make them work. I don’t think byzantines are bad by any means, they are just odd and their versatility makes look them worse than they really are. As at lower level of play a clear gameplan is more advantageous than versatility.
Byzantines are already sick as they are. They are both good on water and on land. They have really good bonuses with their units and I think cataphracts is the most efficient trading unit on average against any unit composition you throw to. Giving them buffs will make them OP quite easily.
not really.
i’d say they are good on water and average on land. they are good at the noob level, but at the highest level they fall behind other civs.
they lose badly to both arbs and cavalry.
tournament usage doesn’t really show them to be all that strong and even ladder winrates say they aren’t close to being op.
They have almost free trash. Add some elite skirms/halbs should not be too hard. They also have cheap camels. Civs with early eco bonus shine in tournaments but most of those get weaker in late game.
Proof?
It isnt visible in the win rates.
your argument was that cataphracts are the most efficient trading unit against any composition you throw them at.
my point is they are bad against the most common compositions in the game.
and if you can afford cataphract + pike or skirm, you think your opponent can’t afford something to back it up with?
yeah but games aren’t really going to “the late game” where you run out of gold all that much.
I’ve seen them quite often in hybrid maps. But only a few pros seem to be comfortable with them. I don’t remember their winning record in pro. But I don’t think they would pick byz if they wouldn’t deliver.
i don’t think “quite often” would be the way to put it. they aren’t uncommon, but i wouldn’t put them as common either. they were seen 4 times in hidden cup 4. which is a decent showing, but not anything great.
5 times out of 65 matches according to nerfox. That makes them picked slightly above average. And they won 3 of these 5 matches.
That makes them an average civ. That’s what I think is their current spot in the game.
And I don’t have an idea how you could buff them for lower elo without influencing competitive. The other way around would be much easier.
So the question is, are byzantines so important to buff them they will become a or even s tier in competitive only because their design just doesn’t fit lower elo?
on hybrid maps. on non hybrid they are below average.
honestly its not just low elos where their winrates are bad.
Literally all their land bonus are useful to survive the early/mid game 
Still they just have a winrate for games below 20 minutes below 40% at high level. That isnt great at all…
Probably not since it wont make money for the developers 
byzantines are sick in late game, like Turks. They are not shining early game and this is probably OK.
yeah because both these civs are doing so great right now. oh wait. no they aren’t.
Sorry, but winrates of versatile civs are always quite bad, they take much more time to master. If we would buff all versatile civs a way they get 50 % winrates pros only would chose them. We need to respect that versatile civs winrates are always worse than the civs potential.
It’s definetely above average in hybrid maps, as they are paired there with other above average hybrid map civs. But They were also played successfully on islands and bypass. Byz aren’t restricted to hybrid maps only.