It is my job to raise this serious question to the balance team ! This shadowtech stuff is just unfair and it’s against the core fundamentals of any RTS game. The opponent just needs to age up and can’t even get punished for this if he has a decent mass of that unit. Meanwhile the enemy has to age up himself and spend 2k-3k res for the unit upgrade which is just unfair.
When will this stop ? And you somehow agree with my statement because you fixed the problem with the Spanish Soldado shadowteching from Veteran to Guard so why not fix it with the other shadowteched units ?
I await for your justice.
Thumbs up this post if you agree with me. Thanks !
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On what? Your argument seems super broad, should 12 Uhlans for 500w and 500f not shadow tech (US card)? I’m probably only going to have 12 all game. That card would be worthless (others would have the same issue).
Onto what I think you’re talking about: Skirmishers, Cassadors, Dragoons, Ruyters, etc: this would be a massive balance change. Some civs would be hurt really, really bad. Also in a 1v1 your opponent can spend the 2-3k res on more units. Sometimes aging just lets your opponent kill you.
There are a few exceptions, but most of the standard units are basically baked into the balance of the game. If it’s not broken, don’t fix it.
The African natives are a bit of an issue sometimes.
The Spanish Soldados were an issue because because Spain was already a great civ and the units were free.
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@Kingfisher1787 I’m NOT talking about units that shadowtech ONCE from Colonial to Fortress Age like Dutch Skirms or regular Dragoons affected by the “Early Goons” card (Hakkapelits for example).
I’m talking about units which shadowtech all the way up to Imperial Age.
And if some civs have one shadowtech unit that go all the way up to Imperial, then all civs should have one.
These exist because you don’t want to unlock a lot of new upgrade techs in buildings.
But I also agree that shadowtech units should have limited availability.
For those that need to be mass produced, like consulate units, African mercs and US/Mexican legions, they should be upgraded by a bundled “veteran/guard/imperial consulate units” tech (in the same manner as the African unit upgrades) in the respective buildings (fort, palace, consulate).
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I think some shadowtech units are too strong, it wouldn’t be bad to have a rework on it
Thanks for the clarification, it wasn’t clear to me what specifically you were referring to in your original post.
As far as the rest go, I think they did a fairly good job with Malta’s order units. They cost more in exchange for the Shadow techs. The biggest offenders then would be Mexico, the US, along with Ethiopia and Hausa. Both Mex and USA would be easy fixes by simply taking the Malta approach.
Ethiopia and Hausa would be harder fixes. The big shipments are probably the biggest issue here though. I’m not entirely sure how I’d go about fixing them.
Outside of the civs mentioned by name, you have the Asian Consulate units. I’m inclined towards not touching the Consulate units though. They’ve been in the game for a long time and Export is quite expensive.
What units are we targeting? Because each one presents a unique challenge.
Sipahi are too strong imho but thats not just shadowteching thats the issue and paying for 1 time use units feels bad. Things like usa ahipments and consulate units too, but tend to be an issue of the of unit being retrainable somehow. En mass to be problematic
Theres via techs like port/brit church. Which still requires mass of a unit thats otherwise kind of bad for late game.
Then theres free techs or reduced like italy skirms some mexico federal cards or plan, and revolts. Revolts are a 3k investment so it becomes balancing units into tempo
And last some civs have it as part of their core identity like italy papal, Malta order, afrifan nats etc.
All of those have different reasons why the shadowtech so i think to be productive you should narrow down which ones. Cause otherwise people are going to assume different examples
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The fix would be extremely easy. Just include the upgrades for mercenaries and natives with the existing bundled upgrades at the War Camp. You don’t even have to increase the cost since the delay from actually having to research an expensive tech is likely enough to keep them in check. The one Hausa tech would have to be broadened to all melee units, not just melee cavalry, but other than that it’s pretty much the same. For artillery, that could be tied to the Imported Cannons tech at the palace.
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I think you nailed it here for the african civs. The natives costing influence almost makes up for the native shadowtech 90% of the time so that one doesn’t bother me.
@op I think the shadowtech bonus really varies between units and civs, like are we talking about pet tigers being imperial for free or are we more aimed at skull knights? Mexico is a glaring issue for shadowtech but the civ is so convoluted as to what age they’re actually in or going to be next so idk I gave up on that civ being discussed in good faith. Some units, like the tokugawa shinobi and yamabushi shadowtech too (even back to TAD) but they’re limited in accessibility which means they’ve never been an issue despite the fact that they can hypothetically be spammed.
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Ethiopia and Hausa units are significantly more expensive than the same units you get with other civs, if the shadow tech is removed, may as well remove influence as a resource and make them euro-like.
I specifically said I didn’t know how to fix those. It’s probably primarily an issue with some of the large shipments that are shadow teched in age 4.
I like the idea of adding the upgrades into the regular upgrades, though it might come need with a cost reduction to training native units.
what about for some civs having the tech be free but still having to be researched like i think you or someone said similar to some euro logi ages ups that grant free arsenal techs?
It would at least give counter play that you knew, they aged and in 25s or so those cav units gonna get nasty so strike or back off? feels like something that level also forces you to build appropriate buildings which gives more options for counterplay
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@platypus_slayer1 Yes, that could work too. The tech is free but you need to research it and wait the same amount of time everyone else awaits to have their unit upgraded to Guard/Imperial.
The African natives are extremely awkwardly designed so that they are unaffordable when you need them early on but kinda OP later on.
In age 2 they have big gaps in their roster that are intended to be filled by natives, outlaws, etc, but their cost is prohibitive because it is one single resource with limited methods to obtain. But aging up gives a massive discount via the Loyal Warriors card, and a shadow tech which can easily make them OP.
I think they need to split the influence cost with another resource and reduce the effect of Loyal Warriors in exchange for a cheaper initial cost so you aren’t so penalized for making them earlier.
So something like making natives cost 75% influence and 25% wood (and maybe overall ~10% cheaper). Then change Loyal Warriors so that it only discounts influence and coin costs. That would make them more expensive long term when they can be an issue but also more accessable early on.
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