As a player for more than 20 years of various genres, especially RTS, I think that this niche game should be more accessible (as far as learning curve is concerned) with the existence of the auto-queue tool (such as AoM), This would reduce the frustration of new players in an already complex genre, favoring more player traffic.
It’s not really fun or strategic to keep remembering to make villagers, nor was it fun to replenish farms in AoE2.
I think spending APM on less tedious situations is a good way to include players.
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Meh. I think it’s fundamental. AoE IV isn’t as micro-intensive as some RTS’ (yet)
Luckily, I think the developers appreciate that the core part of the game should not include autoplay features such as auto-queue villagers and military. Quality of life features are helpful but it shouldn’t go too far.
The AOE franchise has only become more popular in recent years and that is based on people happily building villagers and trying their best to make quick decisions. Or just not worrying about efficency and playing custom/single player.
Also fun is subjective but it definitely is strategic. These types of RTS games balance building economy and military simultaneously. In real time you complete actions as effectively and quickly as you can to outwit and outmaneouvre. Attacking an enemy on multiple fronts can force mistakes like not being able to build villagers or build the right composition. This is high paced strategy at its finest with tension and balance in your decisions.
Let us not rip the heart out of the game even if some do not like it or can’t understand it. Most of all just to be ‘inclusive’. People talk about turning the game into Forza or a military building simulator or many other things that are not AOE. No thank you, spoil another game please.
Autoplay stuff can be modded in to custom games, but this should not come anywhere near the standard multiplayer experience.
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I absolutely agree with you.
But people again and again pretend as if the game would play itself if there was auto queue.
Auto queue doesn’t build farms, lumber camps, houses, it just builds one unit and that’s it.
It won’t make the game suddenly trivial. It just takes care of 1 and just 1 of the things you have to do in an RTS. And that 1 thing is the most boring thing.
It’s not like it’s a big challenge to keep the queue up but it would make getting into the game a bit easier.
Also it would probably make team games with randoms a lot more playable because it would reduce the chance that you end up with a player that completely forgets to built villagers.
It also flattens the skill curve a lot. So unless you are a pro that means there will be more players closer to you in the skill range so you will get better matches on average.
But there will always be this elitism of people that trained themselves to always keep track of their villager production even in a fight. And those people don’t want their skill to be worthless so they do everything to fight auto queue.
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RTS is built on the foundation of attention management. e.g. if you are attacking or early rushing, you are less likely to remember to make villagers. This differentiates higher skilled players from lower skilled players.
Shall we also automate spending of resources? So if there is a military building available and spare resources, the game should just decide for you and make army?
This is an age old discussion and personally I feel as though adding auto que is so detrimental to gameplay it isn’t even worth considering. Making the skill floor higher would be a bad move for an already dumbed down aoe game.
Completely fictional. Making the game easier in this respect will mean people are just spaced out in regards to all the other skills needed. Taking this mechanic out won’t close any sort of gap, if everyone is effected by it. It just makes the game even more simple, and more boring because of it.
If you want to play something easy to play then I don’t understand why you play RTS.
lets translate this into fps. ‘There will always be elitism of players who are better able to reload tactically, ensuring they are best prepared for the next fire fight’ a.k.a ‘there will always be an elitism of people who trained themselves to be better at the game than you, how elitist of them to get better than me’
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Right and people that would like to fundamentally change the game, frame it in such a way that it would not impact how the game is played much at all and ignore the reasons provided.
I don’t like how experienced chess players have all that experience and know all the rules and win all the championships, let us change the game into checkers…
So someone defending their base like Hera or Marinelord would look much closer to rank #50000 if auto queue exists in the game when under attack. Villagers and military building themselves.
There is definitely some nuance here but I have at least a little bit of faith in the developers not to make this extremely bad mistake.
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Automatic production is awful. What makes RTS great games is the balance between macro, micro, multitasking and decision making. If you remove one of those it becomes something less.
The best part of AOE4 is that is has both macro mechanics (building units, building buildings, avoiding supply blocks) and macro decision making (where to collect which resource at what time, when to change your worker allocation).
Mobas are simpler to play and more popular but trying to make RTS more like a moba would destroy what makes RTS fun to play.
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When Starcraft 2 was in Beta a lot of people complained that you can control more then 12 units at the time.
In original Stracraft you could only select 12 units at the time so they argues that it’s a good thing because it requires skill.
Training villagers is boring because it doesn’t require a decision. Decisions is what makes a game interesting.
Deciding on what units to build and then deciding on how to use them.
Deciding on what technology to research, what building to build etc. that is interesting.
Training villagers is not a decision until later in the game where you might want to stop doing so.
Reloading in a shooter is a decision. It’s a trade of. Be vulnerable now to be less vulnerable later.
A better comparison would be in CS 1.6 you have to manually by ammunition while in CSS and CS:GO you get it automatically with your gun. Buying ammunition was never a decision, there is no reason to use a gun without bullets so they decided to remove it.
Training villagers is not a decision. It is something you basically always want to do.
And as I said every time someone talks about Auto Queue people will come up and pretend it will automate everything or make comparisons with things that are completely different.
Most people here complain that there is no global queue.
Now you could argue that having a global queue would take the skill out of the game because good players know what all their buildings are doing in every given moment. Adding a global queue would completely ruin the game and make macro trivial.
Auto queue and global queue aren’t that different. Global queue is already half an auto queue (because you can see when you need to train more villagers without having to click on the TC) but also more because it shows you what all buildings are doing.
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Decision’s are, of course, the back bone of RTS. Decisions = strategy. You are just missing the other two letters of the acronym ‘Real time’. If you don’t like this you may be better suited to turn based games. The whole point of the Real Time part is that you have to delegate your attention to economy & micro.
If you don’t agree with the foundation of the game then something like LoL would be better suited to you.
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Let’s not get dramatic, it will remain RTS with all the letters and it is something OPTIONAL for the players. You will still have micro-management of units, you will still be able to manage resources in the macro, choose your economic strategy (whether to make a second TC or certain economic improvements), know which units you should produce, etc.
Rest assured that the APM at certain levels will have to be high as well. I guess you and others agreed that farms would have to be replanted manually like in 2 and more boring actions.
I just know that RTS can evolve into something that is more “welcoming” for new players. I already told you that wanting to enable the global queue (in Age of Mythology there is the option), is a way to frustrate new players of this generation less and it would hardly affect good players.
That’s not going to change, but it’s a good way to save APM for other game features.
I’m about 1300 more or less and I’m telling you that it doesn’t matter to me whether the players have an automatic queue or not since in the end you win by strategy, resource management and micro.
This is set for the low levels.
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Essentially the higher APM players will win no matter what you change the required actions to. The game will still be cutthroat to low APM players and the player scene will not be any more welcoming, it will just be welcoming the new players with different ways to lose that they then will want to change.
The only way to bridge the skill gap is to make it turn based. Obviously having a high skill ceiling is the core part of the game, it will not be the same game if you change that.
Competitive nature of a game is and will always be competitive. I just see this as advocation to change the game into a way that these types of players would like it to be under the guise of being more welcoming like a discount House of Cards play.
The great majority are happy playing the game as it is and are not coming forward to demand such features. The success of the game knows what side of the bread gets buttered.
Also each time the conversation appears, the fire is quickly stamped out. Autoplay features have been discussed heavily long before this game and the decision was made based on that consideration.
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It’s just like in Hip hop. The old heads know the new school rap has lost the essence of what hip hop really is. But that doesn’t stop the cogs from turning. New listeners buying into the shallow fads. Do whatever you want with the aoe4, I’ll stick to real RTS. Aoe2, simple as that. Have your automated game but the real RTS players won’t forget what its all about. And your new auto everything game wouldn’t exist without the road they paved.
I’m not mad or salty, that’s really just how it is. I want everyone to enjoy RTS and if people prefer the type I didnt grow up on, that’s cool too. At least they experience it at all.
- that’s a hypothetical, with the game bringing in auto everything. Luckily the dev’s still agree that isn’t the best route for RTS.
Ultimately the faster player (thinking and mechanics) will win, it is inevitable. If you have no urge to learn how to over arm serve you won’t be spending much time on the tennis court in a playing to win environment.
AOE has a very rewarding skill set which should be the focus of pushing through the learning curve. Not diluting the skill ceiling so every kid can get a trophy.
Really the question of why it should change has not been addressed. It will not be more welcoming and the funding of the game without this feature already happened. Everyone with authority was happy that the success of the game would work based on the standard features included to attract x number of players. It worked. Why does it need to change?
Such RTS games are niche because of complexity. Should we reduce the number of grand strategy elements in a game like Stellaris to make it more inclusive? The games are designed with a certain audience in mind. As you grow older you don’t want to watch teen flicks anymore, we change but the appeal of something that has success will continue to attract the audience it was intended for.
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Hey, I respect that you’re from the school of manually replanting farms, but look how curious AoE2 DE changed the system to be able to replant automatically and is still very competitive.
If for you the more clicks on boring and obligatory actions (there is no strategic component or resource management or micro, simply remember to hit a key or click) is better, ok, we will continue with niche games where very few play it players and will never have repercussions due to the learning curve.
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Again under the guise of being inclusive as my posts just get ignored because they are not in line with what is being presented and would appear too difficult to address.
You may have changed your mind but the community has not and the developers know the community better than anyone (even if it does not always seem like it).
Boring and obligatory actions? Why are more people playing the AOE franchise than ever? This is just a personal agenda and not based in reality.
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I love that feature, its great! Arbitrary seed reframing always sucked. But as long as I had my TC set to a resource and was making villagers to grow my economy it wasn’t too much of a problem. Although it wasn’t optimal. Making sure I could split my attention between eco and army. See in DE at least there is some attention on economy. Infinite farms & auto villagers just ruins the whole point of the game; Needing to focus on multiple things at once.
** maybe you are right @Adribird90. You definitely put up a very good argument. I just have the bonus of the status quo agreeing with me. You are the type of person that makes me love these forums. Level headed debate is what I’m here for and you definitely brought it. I can really understand where you are coming from. Thank you.
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I do not ignore you, there are simply several messages to answer and I am not aware of everything.
Since you’re writing on behalf of the community, please explain to me why Forgotten Empires included optional automatic farm replanting in AoE2 DE. I wait your answer.