Japan Treaty

[WiryScissors465]

This time I was experimenting with Treaty Japan.

The deck looks like this.
Please tell me if there is any problem with my deck or there is a better way, but I think it’s no problem if I give up the Samurai and Flaming Arrow.

4 animals Shrine

food

wood & coin

In the case of Wood & Coin, it generates less than food, but still more than factory.

If you still think it is unreasonable, ask your ally for livestock.

I have yak around the shrine.
Sheep give less resources than yaks, but still produce more than animals.
If an alliance gives you a cow, you will get a value similar to the number in this screenshot.

Rice Paddy

After completing all upgrades, you will be given the same amount of resources as in Europe.

Army

With shogun

Wonder choices are Golden Pavilion, Great Buddha, The Shogunate, and Toshogu Shrine.

I can’t really agree with the opinion that Japan is weak.

Obviously, I have invested a lot in cards for resources, so there are fewer cards for my army, but I think they are more powerful than the European army.

[PerseusLegends4]

If Japan is properly played in treaty, they are really, really hard to handle.

I wouldn’t say they’re OP, but they are definitely a higher tier than the rest of the civilizations in treaty mode (with exception of maybe France).

If someone knows how to play the civ well, then 125 military pop is a such a headache to handle. They can throw you mass ashigaru as their base unit, have flaming arrows in the back, flank with tons of nagi on the side, and still have some Japanese mortars in the back doing work. European civs have to balance their army due to the situation, but 125 pop can do a lot more.

The difference between Japan and Dutch having extra military pop space, is that Japan has actually an eco that can support it in treaty. The Dutch’s eco in treaty is god awful, and you can’t use the 150 pop sustainably. France can also support its eco, but Fur Trade enables France players to do a lot of crazy things with their military composition before they even have to worry about draining.

You always feel like you are playing defense because you don’t have spare population to flank or push mortars.
The most frustrating thing is having a well-balanced army yet it still feels like the Japan player still had options while I had to commit. I did my thing as Portugal: I had a mixed mass of musks/cassadores, 4-5 cannons in back, 5-6 flanking huss, 8 few goons to cover flanks from nagi, but Japan was able to maintain a similar composition with higher HP and was able to overcome my goons with 12-14 nagi without hurting his eco, distracting my firepower (making me micro more).

I knew how to counter, but it just kept feeling like I was stuck on defense while he still had options to spare.

They already make their military more pop-efficient due to high HP and high attack, but the 25 extra pop is hammer on the head.

And not only that, Japan (already strong by itself) gets even more strong with team bonuses. With team infantry cards from the European civs, Ashigaru can get 70+ attack and 440+ HP. This enables Ashigaru to stand up to imperial skirmishers, needing 5 shots to take down. If you do the math, Ashigaru with these buffs can take 5 shots while killing an imperial skirm of ~260 HP in 6 shots, even with the skirm’s 0.30 ranged resist.

In supremacy, I see Japan losing so the balance seems fine there.

But in treaty, someone with the basic skills can make Japan one pain in the ■■■ for others

[WiryScissors465]

@PerseusLegends4

In supremacy, I see Japan losing so the balance seems fine there.

But in treaty, someone with the basic skills can make Japan one pain in the ■■■ for others

Thank you for your opinion.

In fact, I am a 1vs1 supremacy user, and I wrote this thread because Japan avoids nerfs in so many patches and suffers users who don’t play Japan.
I made a deck for the Japanese treaty because I was told that Japan should not be nerfed because it is weak in the treaty.

However, the number of Japanese units that it actually shows is definitely strong.

Shrine produce more resources than factories.
Ashigaru consumes 1 pop and can deal more than 60 damage.
Although they can have maximum of villagers only 75, but they have either excellent economic and units.

Most of the 1400+ users now use Japan. They are easy to handle and strong.
Just because they are weak to the initial attack, because they are weak to the treaty, because they are weak to Supremacy, they continue to avoid nerfs.

But in fact, that words are all a lie.

If developers have ever played real games, they must have nerfed Japan.
They pretend to be balanced by over-nerfing Sweden and overlying bonuses.

I don’t know why they deserve to change the balance. There are still a lot of old users who are hesitant to buy, but The developers seem to want them not to buy AOE3DE.

[PerseusLegends4]

Yeah, I’m not so great at 1v1s (I’m average), but I’ve played as Russia versus Japan and I can see why Japan is beatable in the early game. You just can’t let them stack wonder bonuses, boom, and upgrade their units, or else Japan eventually becomes a monster. Harder to do with civs without a good Age 2 rush.

I remember seeing stats somewhere, but I saw that Japan just did average in supremacy. The good ol’ rush civs faired better (Otto, Indian, Russia, etc.)

So I don’t personally think Japan was that much of a problem in supremacy… my games never lasted that long with them, but I do think Japan is very spoiled per say. They have significantly more “special things” to them than other civs. I know it was to give Japan character and uniqueness, but it ended up making Japan unfair to the other civs that have been here for awhile.

Take a look at the original civs - there was this “baseline” thing that civs were (haldberd/pike, musk, dragoon, skirm, same artillery, 3 TCs, etc.) and each civ was given a few unique things to stand out (Russia’s spam, Port’s TCs and cassador, Spanish unction and lancer, Dutch banks, etc.)

All these “special things” the civs had just enhanced a part of the civ, yet were in balance to keep it competitive with the other civs.

Japan on the other hand, is spoiled with everything - stronger units (though at a higher cost), wonders and all their cool/powerful effects, the daimyos/shogun concept, cherry orchards and shrines that make booming safer, etc.

It’s too much. 3-4 quirks would’ve been nice.

Compared to an OG nation like Spain or Portugal, they aren’t slapped on 15+ special things like Japan is, lol.

Powercreeping just comes naturally with newer civs, and old civ designs get more and more outdated and obsolete (Dutch, Aztecs, etc.)

[Jonasnee8581]

Japan has advantages that can be pushed, but most of those are the sort you can exploit vs a relatively bad opponent.

Japans weaknesses are pretty obvious:

the eco is bad, and requires an extraordinary amount of cards to make good. sure individually Japanese villagers are quiet good but you got 25 less of them. the shrine eco might look impressive but all upgrades present its about the same as 3 factories. this leave Japanese eco somewhere around 95 to a 100 villager equivalent (typical European faction like Russia and Spain have 110).

if your eco gets touched you’re dead, obviously no one likes to lose factories but it is still a whole lot less impactful than losing 1 of your 3 main wonders. it HURTS to lose the large shrine, the shogunate or the pavalion.

japanese training is slow, and no training in bigger batches doesn’t really make up for this.

bad art, flamming arrows simply aren’t up to the task compared to other art.

lag of a skirmisher- the most common unit in the game. yumi archers are not great, they dont compete with either a skirmisher nor a longbow.

now as for Japans advantages:

pretty much all units have a good siege, japan can quiet quickly capitalize on mistakes made by your opponent.

a higher population- however keep in mind other factions have native shipments etc.

great mortars, this is the best unit in the roster comparatively to other factions.

Naginata and Ashigaru are both pretty good units, A-tier most likely. but the high cost with japans low eco is an issue.

[WiryScissors465]

Asking for a huge amount of cards is the same for other civs.

Also, other than Dutch and Britain, Europe cannot have three factories. And if Dutch and Britain decide to have a third factory, they will give up the Imperial upgrade.

Yumi has more damage than Skirmisher. Even they are cheaper than skirmishers.

Losing the Wonder is painful, but if it does, the game is likely to be over. Conversely, if the European civ lost its factory, the European civ would be facing defeat.

[Jonasnee8581]

@WiryScissors465

Also, other than Dutch and Britain, Europe cannot have three factories. And if Dutch and Britain decide to have a third factory, they will give up the Imperial upgrade.

i dont think you get the point. the point i was making is that japan gets about the same resources from their shrines+ wonder as what 3 factories would give.

@WiryScissors465

Yumi has more damage than Skirmisher. Even they are cheaper than skirmishers.

nope: the dmg on base is higher true but they only got a 1.5 dmg bonus vs a 3 dmg bonus, a yumi doesn’t fundamentally fulfill the role of a skirmisher because of that. yumis will do about 75 dmg all upgrades to heavy infantry, skirmishers typically do between 105 and 120 dmg depending on the faction.

as for price: wood is more expensive than food and gold, costing 50 wood is worse than costing 50 coin.

@WiryScissors465

Losing the Wonder is painful, but if it does, the game is likely to be over. Conversely, if the European civ lost its factory, the European civ would be facing defeat.

the point is that you can be raided by say oprichs or samurais as europe you can still recover to keep fighting, while japan losing their wonder will give them a permanent negative to their ability to keep fighting. longer train time is bad, worse unit stats is bad, worse eco is bad because japans eco already was poor.

@WiryScissors465

Asking for a huge amount of cards is the same for other civs.

Japan needs on a typical landmap 12 eco cards, a typical european faction like ports will need 9-10 depending on what you count. France only need to ship like 8 cards, and will get a much better eco out of it than japan.

[WiryScissors465]

I’m not a treaty player, so your opinion might be right.

However, I can’t agree with the opinion that Japan should not be nerfed because it is weak in the treaty despite having a strong unit and economy.

The 1vs1 supremacy is currently occupied by Japan.
also, Incas are forcing an early attack on their opponents with their amazing economic power. However, their powerful buildings, abundant resources, and strange abilities given to units are making it difficult.

I don’t like how to balance developers’ patches and balance in many ways. They are ignoring the problem.

[Jonasnee8581]

most of the 1 vs 1 ratings i see put japan fairly low.

@WiryScissors465

weak in the treaty despite having a strong unit and economy.

the eco is not strong, that is japans main weakness. or let me put it this way: japanese eco is relatively easy to manage but upgrades have a smaller effect than other nations upgrades simply due to the sheer lag of villagers. Japan gets to their max quicker than most other civ and the shrines during this time will provide more resources, this is the same idea dutch work under, though obviously banks are much more expensive.

if we assume we need to nerf Japans early game eco (which i dont know if i agree with based upon the factions mediocre status) then i would suggest lowering shrines HP to make it easier to kill them. perhaps also reduce Heavenly kami to 20% rather than 25% cost reduction.

as for other changes i would suggest a weird change: make Dojos age 4 cards instead of age 3. now on the surface this might seem like a nerf but japan has so many age 3 cards that this hopefully would actually allow you to send them, perhaps throw in a small buff to say let monks rebuild them fro 500 wood.

[WiryScissors465]

It is difficult to agree that Japan’s economy is weak. I crushed countless numbers of their shrine and led them to victory, but as a result they had more resources than me.

Their strength is that they are easy to handle and strong. Their base is, in fact, mediocre, but with too many bonuses.

Reducing a shrine 's HP wouldn’t be that meaningful patch. buffs like Consulates, some cards, must have to nerf the additional damage they provide.

[Gamer4life20143]

Lets nerf sweden they said

[Jonasnee8581]

@WiryScissors465

It is difficult to agree that Japan’s economy is weak. I crushed countless numbers of their shrine and led them to victory, but as a result they had more resources than me.

a good japanese boom in treaty see them getting anywhere between 1850 and 2000 score. to compare then a good port boom is like 2250 score, and British, french, germans, chinese etc. can all relatively easily get to 2500 score.

Japans eco is decisively 1 of the lower ones, slightly beating out dutch, making it around the 4th worst eco in the game.

[WiryScissors465]

A 1vs1 match is not possible, but if it is a team match, you can request a cow from an ally. In that case, Japan could generate more resources. In that case, you will get the same value as I tested.

[Jonasnee8581]

no japan cant even with cows.

listen, look at your own stats, 1 shrine isn’t worth 1 settler, and 22 certainly aint worth 20 settlers and 2 factories.

[CitingPepper233]

Just want to add to those points, it is even worse in DM. Japan Lategame without Daymos or wonder upgrades is weaker than almost all other factions.
i’ve played them quite a bit and they feel so weak compared to even generic european civs. Shrines barely make up for factories and the missing vills is an issue