Sort’ve like I knew they would be just like china was when it came out Japense are overtuned. Mikos has 42 pierce armor for some reason and can heal so its impossible to snipe usually outside of a clean surround, their early eco is too much to deal with and it generally doesn’t matter how much you raid them. Sams are overtuned. I am all about a strong samurai unit but they do not need high sustained damage AND a special ability its just too strong. They are honestly decent at countering COUNTER melee units. Biggest issue is youre expected to counter alot of units but you just simply cant push out more eco unless youre japanese or china. Uninstalling until it’s nerfed because of the fact that they did the typical live service game trick of making the newest thing broken for sales, be back later.
Eh why don’t you just stop playing instead of being brash enough to purge the game entirely over a new civ looking op on paper when thats how it usually is. The Japanese just released so people haven’t really experimented with it yet beyond people who tried it early so its abit too soon to act like they are hyper unbalanced.
Though their QoA and bug fixing definitely needs work but thats another matter.
Respectfully you don’t really have an argument as to why they are not OP I suppose?
People have to learn strategies to counter the Japanese first before you can call them OP.
Fighting an unknown enemy is always difficult.
That doesn’t mean I disagree with you. I just think it’s a little to early to call them OP.
At this point I’m pretty sure the devs have nothing to do with any sort of balancing.
They keep doing wild swings of 50%-100% stats modifications.
Samurai don’t look that much better then Fanatic on paper.
- 38% more expensive
- 33% more population
- 22% more HP
- same armour
- 26% more DPS
- same bonus vs. Infantry
- no bonus vs. cavalry
Samurai can get +15% HP and damage though the Bushido system and then there are all the god specific techs too but I think they are a separate topic because they can be changed independent of the base stats of the Samurai.
I feel like people forget that they cost 2x as much population as most other infantry.
Don’t forget their burst ability
I actually like the Japanese. I think they need a couple tweeks on the eco side but other than that no real issues with them
They indeed are very OP, especially amatarasu who has way too good economy. Her passive is essentially 1.3 extra vilagers on each tier, which is huge.
The Bushido system needs some serious rethinking as well. At the moment there’s no reason to even upgrade your units at the training building. The 2nd tier shouldn’t grant the medium units upgrade, I’d stagger it by 1 level, so the 3rd tier grants the medium upgrade, meaning champion upgrades are going to be difficult to get for free. If you are mildly aggressive you can get heavy units in age2. Totally balanced yes.
There’s something weird about the samurai, they perform a tad too good for their stats.
Even their siege crossbow is a tad OP as it doesn’t have minimum range. It’s only relatively ok now cause it doesn’t pierce. Otherwise they’d be totally broken.
The scout fox should also get some sort of a nerf in age1.
On the other hand i wish they better explained what some of the GP do, or make them less generic in their gfx effect. It’s almost like the tooltips were written by AI.
This is a great highlight in my opinion. Im really not so worried about the sams but youre correct they need alittle tweaking. They do too much to buildings in my opinion but that is an easy fix. Throw in a .85 to buildings or something like that. Their train time should also go into consideration aswell and should be longer as they are designed to out perform two melee units as one so therefore the opposing player is esxpected to to pump out twice the units out quicker. Their seige honestly hits much too hard but it just needs a tweak in my opinion not a nerf bat.
My suspicion is that samurai are somehow bugged. Their stats wouldn’t suggest they’d be so effective in combat. But they manage trades that are surprisingly good.
Did you try making some Editor Testing? (asking politely)
Seems to be mor around the bushido system than the unit itself. The samurai is clearly strong, but what seems to take it to the next level is it being 1-2 line upgrades above its opponents. When you test the units vs similars of its kind be it by cost or pop its not as oppresive.
This of course doesnt take into account mixed army comps. But it also doesnt take into account that new things will feeel overwhelming or underwhelming before people get used to them.
I kinda agree that the first 2 levels of bushido are way to easy to get, you usually never happen to consider upgrading manually. Increasing each of their requirements, especially the 1st will resultin a more stratigic play- “do i upgrade now or wait?”. Maybe also reducing amaterasu’s bonus from samurais xp generation as well, It seems she is usually well ahead of the other two gods in xp.
And regarding samurai vs buildings, a tweak I would do is to make their special not work on buildings. So they can’t come and dish this big damage to buildings real quick- thats the shinubi’s job.
I think the main issue is that Japanese have the same resource collection rate as Greeks but for Greeks that is basically their civ bonus and also exists to compensate for some villagers being busy generating favour.
Japanese lose very little villager train time to train some Mikos and then they save resources on unit line upgrades.
Tuning their resource collection down to the levels of Norse and increasing the XP for each tier would fix most problems. Making waiting for upgrades a choice and not the only viable cause of action.
I agree that in isolation, stats-wise, the samurai seem alright (when you factor cost per pop/hp), but with the context of the civ, it feels to me too that they’re too powerful. When looking at how much damage they deal you have to take their special into account as well. So their actual damage output is bigger than what’s listed in the stats sheet.
Bushido as well, getting heavy samurai in classical is very difficult to deal with, if you’re in classical as well. Maybe bushido line upgrades should exclude the specialist dojo units?
ATM (but still it’s early days, this might be wrong) they seem to be too cost effective against everything that’s not specifically counter infantry. Sometimes I hear people say that they’re slow, but they’re not that slow, they’re essentially hoplites speed-wise, yeah not a raiding unit, but not a dao-swordsman either, which would be more appropriate for such a force of destruction.
It doesn’t take much getting used to to figure out that a civ with best eco, free unit upgrades and easily the best favor generation in the game is OP.
Yea i tested them in game, not Just stats in spreadsheet. For sure that special is also an issue. Its weird they got an ability since classic age.
Wonder if it would be more balance if they unlocked it vía the bushido system..
Dunno about restricting the dojo units from the system since they are meant to get the better of it, adquiring exp faster like hersir do favor and unlocking a new form upon max tier.
Could also increase the exp required to get line upgrades above your current age and have aging up reduce the gap so its still an incentive and not Just fighting till champion comes in classic age, which currently is fairy easy to get.
This is interesting, people have also suggested having the miko take part in the total villager count, but i guess this affects more the late game aspect than their current very strong early game.
For sure the civ overall is overtuned. But that doesnt change that its easy to turn everything into a “please fix OP “ cry rather than trying to work around things.
Dunno about having the Best favor generation, its not cheap to get going early on and similar to oracles its tied down to having map control to work properly.
Currently sure its very easy to achive but Wonder how good its favor system would go once its military arent as snowball as they go currently.