Before the napoleon gun existed, you could not say whether flaming arrows were OP, UP or Balanced. If you compare it now to the napoleon gun, it clearly looks too weak
Both have same base attack (75) and splash (2), both cost roughly same in vill second (450coin vs 300c/100w) , but napoleon gun has HALF the Rate of Fire as flaming arrow! Flaming arrow has extra 5 range and you can get upgrades sure, but merc units are supposed to be cost inefficient compared to their regular counterparts, and only really an option when a player has too much gold and too little wood / food. Plus the napo gun has caseshot attack, higher base hp (230 vs 175) and a faster speed (4 vs 3) too.
ROF of 6 for flaming arrow is just ridiculous IMO, it’s the same as a great bombard, even a rocket fires faster (5). I suggest devs at least reduce ROF to 5 as any less would mean they win all artillery vs artillery encounters.
On top of all this, japan currently have no good counter to mass heavy infantry late game, yumi is shit compared to regular skirms in countering musketeers (or other H.I), as they only get 1.5X multiplier vs H.I and cost wood which is often not viable late game.
Bottomline, either napo gun is busted, or flaming arrow is too weak. Suggest devs fix this
Flaming Arrow can be upgraded a lot don’t forget. They get a multi vs artillery with guard upgrade, have 10% artillery attack card, 20% hp card, Faster train time and 15% cost reduction card and your daimyo/shogun can buff them. They are quite ridiculous when fully teched and buffed by auras.
But a lot of this is simply not practical, the flaming arrow HP card is not great for japan in age 3 which has so many other great cards, and the most significant upgrade comes in age 5 (+50% AND +2 range) where most games don’t go anyway. Honestly I wouldn’t even care if they removed the extra 2 range and reduced it’s base ROF, but treaty players would complain
In age 3 it’s shit, in age 4 it’s still meh unless massed 9-10+ (with the cheaper faster train card)
To your overall point, which is a side-by-side stat comparison, you have to look at civs as a whole. Even if Nepo Guns were simply a straight up better FA, that doesn’t actually mean FA need a buff.
Flaming Arrows are a very different unit than nepo guns.
You also must consider that FA can be trained by a dude on a horse. That’s huge too.
Japan generally relies on its strong infantry and cavalry to make up for weaker artillery. It’s kinda balanced into the civ, so buffing their artillery based on it being weaker than other’s artillery wouldn’t be a good thing.
Napoleon guns are the merc type to the leather cannon. To try and compare flaming arrow to Napoleon gun is quiet the stretch as their role is very different from one another. The nap gun is a close range (for art) anti infantry (has negative multipliers to cav) with a built in case shot (a close range only shot that does less over all damage but does more area damage, great for when surrounded by infantry units). If you wanted to compare flaming arrow it would be the light cannon from the Haudenosaunee only accessible in age 4 mind you.
The role that the flaming arrow fills is a cheaper (less gold/ less pop) anti art/everything less so for cav (though they DONT have any negative multipliers to cav) . Meaning that they are not great at anything (they do have bonus to infantry) but they are not bad at anything either, which makes sense for their role. If your going to make any flaming arrow early on in a age 3 it would be for anti artillery reasons and less so for anti inf. They are amazing in 1v1 if you see a falc push incoming as it would be cheaper to counter them then would be with culvs, hell most of the time it deters people from making more art or have them over react and make 2-3 culvs them selves. The only time i might make flaming arrows other then anti art would be that the enemy is trying to mass expensive/powerful infantry units but thats mostly in team games.
Team games when you have a wall of allies to block for you is where flaming arrow really shines as mass flaming arrow is insane as they can force 1 team member to go mostly culv to try and counter you but culvs don’t do jack to anything other then art, as for flaming arrow in mass it would be a threat to anything even cav on approach.
From what your trying to describe what you want from flaming arrow to do would be closer to the Cetbang cannon from Indonesia revolt. I would say its the cheapest art unit in the game that packs the most punch for its 2 pop cost, has a ROF of 3, has NO bombard stance like flaming arrow, has a range of 26 same as falc, and has a range bonus to infantry with NO negative multipliers ( the best way to describe them would be like skirms with area damage, better range, siege damage, and better against cav then skirms would be) but only has a base damage of 55 with 1 area damage AND still has it 75% range resistance like a falc. It is a fun art unit to mess around with but hard to get to use it in a rank game.
I never have even seen them used, perhaps they’re particularly good in treaty I don’t know but in 1v1 never seen them. Samurai have very high siege anyway so it wasn’t a change anyone asked for though it helps with pathing I guess.
I’ve seen them like once in a 3v3. They weren’t insane, but they’re annoying because they force heavy reactions because of the threat they pose and probably force a lot of extra walling.
That’s exactly why FA need a buff, japan currently has no good way to deal with massed musketeers, especially with redcoats, janissary etc. FA can’t even 1 shot a single jani / redcoat with it’s pitiful base attack, and the low ROF means these guys can just walk in, surround and 1 shot FAs with minimal casualties. Try that shit with falcs and you get BTFO.
Yumi also suck, just see side by side stats with a regular euro skirm. Every civ gets counter infantry rifling which gives them a 3X multiplier vs musks, and all euro civs get advanced arsenal (which gives them flint lock, paper catridge) and AT LEAST 1 INF card.
What does yumi have ? just 2 cards, no other meaningful upgrades unless you ally with dutch and get the arsenal wagon out for 10% hp. The 2 cards being a 20% attack bonus, and the way of the bow which gives +2 range and 15% HP (also in age 3 meaning japan player has to sacrifice some other amazing card for this)
If you still disagree with FA, you have to at least agree napoleon gun deserves a nerf, you can watch the latest game lionheart played on his youtube channel (44m long) and see how much value he gets out of it in this game.
Personally I can’t see how ROF of 5 will break the game, its equivalent to a 20% attack boost, that and the +10% artillery card can finally make them a decent option vs tanky INF
that’s the problem though, they’re not good for anything, maybe it wasn’t the case pre DE, but now with all the buffs other civs received, late game huge masses of musks / janis and the numerous grenadier type units just steamroll them and japan lacks a good skirm unit (yumi is much better vs goons than skirms are, but sucks vs inf) which leaves them with NO OPTIONS.
They need to be at least good vs inf , no need for it to have falc like stats. A 1 ROF reduction if you start at 6 is not as drastic a change you think it is. They reduced the great bombard from 8 to 6 and no one complained.
“but you should never go age 4-5 with japan” or “your team mate should take care of it and 1v1s dont go late game anyway” are not acceptable answers
I dont think i have ever lost a game were I go ashi (musk) and flaming arrow VS musk (or any other infantry) and falc (any standard art) and lose or at the very least felt that i was at a disadvantage( The old school musk/art is a solid force for any civ). The musk for japan does so much carry for the civ as a whole that any weakness or flaws that it might have is made up BY them.
And yes i did watch that game yesterday and left a comment about how he might of thrown the game but came right back with 2 nap guns and taking out a group of espada that would of normally have killed any art in that same situation for free, but they had case shot and took out 8-10 melee that had them surrounded and in melee range. The perfect role of the nap gun was done that simple.
I’ve already stated how i feel about flaming arrow and its role in game (mostly cheap anti art with a bonus to infantry). It seems to me you want to change its role to something else like giving it more ROF even though every ANTI art (culv, siege ele, light cannon) has the same ROF other then Hand mortars that have ROF of 4 but each shot is very low in damage and speed and splash.
So if anything would be CHANGED to this art it would be a card that you could add to your deck that would make the flaming arrow more specialized in what you want it do for you, then a general purpose art that it is currently. Which is fine but it stats would have to be rearranged to make it more balanced again ( a whole new unit to balance). If anything the more realistic option would be a card similar to Mexico and Haudenosune that makes most of its gold costing units cost wood instead; something similar but not the same effect though you could make it cost food instead.
The only problem I have with flaming arrows is their range only increases with their imperial upgrade instead of their guard upgrade or their cost reduction shipment, if they’re going to fulfill any anti artillery role, they need a bit more range than the 28 base range they have as soon as the game progresses past the 2 falc shipment and people actually start massing artillery. The light cannon is so much better since it starts with 32 range and also moves faster, I’m not saying turn flaming arrows into light cannons, but there’s a gap that could be closed a bit. They also suck against heavy artillery, since they face heavy artillery with the same range in Age IV, a match up they mostly lose, since heavy artillery is both tanky and does high damage while flaming arrows do little damage in return. Japan in general doesn’t have an answer to mass heavy artillery, neither does China.
Shrine eco plus ashi = best musk once rolling. Super good anti cav plus fast musk plus multiple buffs begs the question- why are you taking bad fights with them and youll shit on almost any musk fight so why do you need better artillery? And 2- a FA is a low.pop general purpose artillery. It shouldnt beat infantry as much as a falc, anti artillery better than culv, etc. Utility over cost effectiveness is rts unit design 101. More over with mobile shipment point and 2x shipments as japan if you die to musk falc its for 2 simple reason
1- opponent got to age3 and better units faster. Welcome to aoe3 spain usa otto do this ez. Most civs suffer but if you manage to stabilize its gg to them cause japans units and eco scale better (cept they have a million overtuned pops inho but thats bot this discussion)
2- bad micro on your part. Your faster musk and artillery who are stronger res to res should win in equal res and tech level. Thats a harsh point but its true japan reauires more micro to get max value for its stats. Dodging culvs ashi raids and rolling eco all to culminate in a equal res fight once tempo catches up where better scaled units smash. This is an rts so up to.player skill to hit this win condition noy job of devs to make it easy for you
Also yabusame, FA and occasional consulate stuff nukes falcs. The tools are.there. japans issues are around tempo not buffing of its units
