June PUP- Lakota Rework

yeah seeing these new changes being tried out, the new lakota is going to be defensive as ■■■■, the target locking cetan is a massive dps boost, the free tribal market means you can can encircle yuor base with it as we defensive emplacement and the eco teppee boost also ironically is a raid defense since you are encouraged to build them and they provide HP for the vils so your eco is more raid resistant

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I’m hoping for this. Studying the clashes between the Lakota and the US, you’ll notice that just about every battle was fought inside Lakota territory, near the borders.
Their fight was to defend their borders. They agreed to borders and leaders like Chiefs Eagle Woman, Sitting Bull, and Crazy Horse heavily regulated to their followers to stay within these borders to avoid further clashes with the US.
That’s what I mean by defensive warfare - the Lakota were not a warlike people, their empire did not arise from conquest. Rather, a majority of their sphere of influence was because they made friends out of their neighbors and pushed away the enemies of their friends through trade strangulation.

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My experience in the PUP is that Lakota is now a pure FF civ. You will not want to spend too much time in age 2 now, if you try to aggressive, it will be equal to an all-in, since there’s no age2 villager cards anymore. You will want to get age 3, 8 vili and adoptions card to boom off 2-3 TCs, while laming with cetans and rifle riders.

Personally I think their age2 is a bit overnerfed. I’d at least move the axe rider and bow rider alliance buff cards from age 3 to age 2. Their age2 is so bad you can’t even beat the extreme AI in age 2 anymore.

However, once you reach age 3 you kind of need to be aggressive and take the map. Since tribal marketplace no longer costs wood, you gather your gold more consistently now, and you will almost always want 2-3 tribals active at the same time.

Realistically, you can’t wall off with tribals alone, you are map/spawn dependent. You still need to roam and take map control, you just can’t do it from age 2 now.

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yeah as it is age 2 is a bit risky, though arguably that makes early defensive-esque play kinda make sense, you dont want to push out early so you are sort of defensive with like a ring defense trying to get to age 3 and then push out

true but i remember the period in esoc where lakota had the stackable eco buffs, the play wasnt walling off per say but that a combination already spamming tepee for eco makes sending the card that also buffs attack much more worth it and makes pushing the lakota base a nightmare since you have jacked up units while in base the eco is very strong

The PUP isnt fully in that direction but it is somewhat there, so arguably a defensive age 2 with tepee buffed cetan and then pushing out in age 3 with map control is very real

Or just straight FI into the card that auto upgrades infantry into guard and then spam guard wakina cards and then send the +20% hp card and then the +75% siege card for clubs

I do agree that they probably should get 5 vils back.

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In all my games against both people and AI, it never made sense to stay in age 2 and turtle and play somehow defensively as lakota now. There just isn’t enough to do and you get outboomed by pretty much every civ if you try to do it. Each time I tried the “old” way of lakota, with staying in age 2 and being somewhat aggressive, I lost. Hard. When I started doing almost naked FFs, it went much, much better. Since you no longer need to chop to mine, you can pretty much FF like any other civ. Which is what I’d recommend now anyway.

Trying to waste time by building teepees or somehow encircle yourself with all sorts of obstacles is not worth it. Just FF :slight_smile:

I appreciate the rework! I’m just worried about two things:

  • I feels the economy took a hard hit that is not offset by the new changes since they’ve been diluted into more variables which require more attention, more cost, more choices.

  • Siege dance was really good for cavalry and pushes. The dance was nerfed and the power was divided into big buttons, cards and wall bonus. It looks like a nerf for the average supremacy mode (although good for tretay).

GREAT!!! You listened to the feedback! POGGERS!
Bhakti having two units with the same role is really odd. Perhaps we should transfer War Elephant to a brand new native?

OK, I’ve made a comment here but repeating it:

Wouldn’t it be easier/simple if we had an exclusive NTP travois (NTP= Native Trading Post ) out of Explorers & Embassy that are cheaper (100f, 100w) but would set up the NTP much slower than building it? Think of like an “Emissary” from your city.

I feel that would’ve been simpler than the conversion method and would still respect the old way of making an alliance with Explorers (which is expensive but faster).

A new Theravada temple would be the best fit for War Elephants. It’s distinct from Mahayana Buddhism (Shaolin and Zen) and is practiced in Myanmar, Thailand, and Sri Lanka where elephants are a pretty big deal. It could feature on Ceylon, Bengal, Parallel Rivers, Indochina, Siam (blank space), and Himalayas. Deccan could also probably feature them since War Elephants would fit, but the type of Buddhism practiced there isn’t Theravada.

I also think Bhakti temples should appear on the Indonesia map. Hinduism was very widespread there at the start of the game’s timeframe and it’s still practiced in Bali today.

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I hit upon this in another comment earlier, but the main thought is this - there is zero doubt that the Lakota wars this is based off of have the Lakota fighting purely defensive, from the Wounded Knee Massacre to the Battle at Greasy Grass. Each of those takes place within the pre-defined borders the US and Natives agreed upon, and each is the US breaking these treaties. The US has a long and bloody history of breaking treaties made with Native Americans.

The agricultural methods of the Haudenosaunee would be best represented by… gaining food from chopping trees. Literally no other way to describe it, but in terms of raw output? The Haudenosaunee should be second only to the Aztecs in food output from “farms”. (I say “farms” because their concept of how their agriculture worked had nothing to do with farms as we know it, but it was far more effective than anything the European colonizers brought over.)
The Haudenosaunee should be capable of mining and farming normally (although making the Hauds heavily dependent on wood would be a good choice), but the Lakota should be incapable of farming or gathering from mines. The entire economy of the Lakota was dependent upon bison - in my own mod, I pushed food costs of the civ up so high that even the Lakota buildings were costing 50% food/wood. The Lakota relied on the bison for everything.

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Haudenosaunee should get a way to generate new trees and Lakota one to get new Bisons.

Keep the tribal market place but give it a completely different purpose.
It works like the African grainy but the improved collection rate is completely transformed into coin.

Maybe the Lakota could get a building like the Mongol Ovoo from AoE4 or the maintain monastery that can be build on top of a mine.
It has a build limit (+1 per Age up) and trickles coin. The trickle rate is lower when the mine depletes.

The balance is going to be a bit tricky.

I don’t think that necessarily has to impact the gameplay.
I mean the enemy base symbolises a forward base that is build in Lakota territory. Then attacking it would be defensive.
If we play on a none American map the whole matchup is obviously fantasy anyway.

About the farms.
Lakota didn’t farm but they know how to farm, right?
So they should be able to farm but not need to farm in most cases.

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More?? 5/8 units cost wood currently. Also the civ has travois to saving wood (or thats the purpouse) and free market upgrades. Their dependency on wood is the highest in the entire game…thats enough by far

Edit: I forget that Aenna existed

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Aenna only cost food so 3 units that don’t cost wood.
But yes, very wood dependent already.

So giving them more lategame ways to get wood might be a good idea.
So they can do something other then spamming the two same units every time.

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if they changed the Aenna firing animation and argubly gave it similar treatment to the cetan bowman, I am pretty sure that haud would have no need for like a lot of wood

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The gun running big button is weird. It works well with the mortars but with the outlaws, I’m not sure what the point is. It’s so expensive that you’re never going to be able to get it for the outlaws and by the time you want to get it for the mortars the outlaws are even more useless than they were already. I think the three outlaws should be available by default in ages 2 or 3 and the BB should upgrade them. It’d be cool if it turned them into their US or Mexico counterparts depending on the civ and then the Lakota outlaw shipments would no longer fill that role and could be lowered to their original coin cost.

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New lakotas crates

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I’m curious about this change. How does it suppose to work? There is no reason to build multiples Tepees since they don’t stack anymore, so you’d just build a few of them close to mines and hunts ?

I like the (economic/lore) concept behind it very much, they’ll be almost like a “Global Granary”. The thing is that some cards break the need of building more Teepees, so the 12-> 20 might be irrelevant. Specailly because they don’t stack anymore.

It’s weird all those cards/techs for teepees, I’m not sure whether it’s awesome or troublesome because someone always comes up with some crazy broken combos.
I just feel that you devs should be gentle about all those effects that boost other things: everything has been a big “percentage” for lots of things in the last few patches, in a way that completely overturns the standard “restrictions”.

Overall I REALLY enjoyed this rework. My only concerns, as mentioned before, are their economy and the siege . Other than that I appreciate the effort, specially the big buttons!

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By the way since you’ve been ALWAYS touching mercs, outlaws in the last few months may I suggest you a thing? Why don’t you update the cards that make mercenary shipments cheaper into an"arrives fast!" card?

  • They are never used, by supremacy or TR-40.
  • They are a shipment that require shipments. And coin.And those shipments arrive in 60s instead of usual 40s
  • They don’t make merc shipments arrive fast.
  • Their effect is pretty weak .
  • We should see them as a tech that require XP as cost and not coin
  • It’s better and easier than creating so many gimmicks, techs and cards to make mercs more viable with every new civ, patch or rework. It ends up upseting a lot of players having so many thingsacross the board

I’m talking specifically about:

  • Mercenary Loyalty(III): Mercenary shipments cost -10% to -25% / available to most civs

  • Religious Unity(III): Zapotec and Maya Allies, Renegade Spanish, Recruit Buccaneer(s), and (Great) Temple Support shipments cost -10% to -60%/ available to Aztec

  • National Unity(III): Cayuga Support, Onondaga Support, Seneca Support, Tuscarora Support, Oneida Support, and Mohawk Support shipments cost -75%/ available to Haud,

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Even if the mechanics are changed I don’t see the problem. The more unique and realistic a civilization is, the better. “Lakota mining” is one of those crazy mechanics that I hope will change in the future. This is my proposal about it: Possible New plot solution on obtaining Lakota and Haudenosaunee coins

And this is a card that helps in the late game or treaty economy of the Lakota. If they improve the economy of the Lakota, it will not be necessary for their cavalry to be OP:

A Possible New Letter to the Lakota: 'The White Buffalo’

You will receive a white buffalo that will give you 2000 experience and he will be able to work in the square with the rhythm of 5 workers and will count as 5 workers. In case it dies you can create it in the square. (Age IV) (Does not occupy population)


Another change I hope they make in the future is to remove the Mayan ally card for the Incas, which I’m sure doesn’t make sense. Unless I’m the one ignoring something.

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That’s not the only native ally card that doesn’t make sense. I don’t think there’s proof that Incas and Tupis met, for example.

IRC Inca empire traded with tribes from the Amazones, IDK if they were specifically Tupis.

they are really pushing the TP play here arent they