Tbh, not every unique cavalry units should be able to beat Paladin just because they are trained from Castle, unless they have the same upgrade cost as Cataphract. The case of Leitis and Boyar are truly outrageous.
But if Paladin was better than Leitis and Boyar in general, who would produce costly UU from castle? There must be advantages for cavalry UU over generic counterpart. If they do use Paladin instead of UU for most cases, the civ will not be unique enough.
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Both have their own drawbacks, Boyar has lower HP and slower movement speed, Leitis has lower HP and lower Pierce armor.
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Both of these are cheaper than Paladin not just the upgrade cost, especially with Leitis. Overall, you canât deny that Iron Pagoda get much worse treatment compare to these 2.
The lower HP and movement speed of Boyar is pretty negligible. They are still faster than Teuton Paladin and solid against Arbalest.
Also, your comment would make most infantry UU cry
New civsâ elite upgrades are also overall cheaper. Hereâs a few from old civs:
- Hussite Wagon: 800 wood, 600 gold
- Leitis: 750 food, 750 gold
- Ballista Elephant: 1000 food, 500 gold
Compared to some old civsâ elite upgrade costs:
- Woad Raider: 1000 food, 800 gold
- Throwing Axeman: 1000 food, 750 gold
- Conquistador: 1200 food, 600 gold
Not really. You could get more Hand Cannoneers instead of paying for the elite upgrade, which should be taken into account. Hindustani and Italian Hand Cannoneers also already counter them.
Anyway, the topic is not about Janissaries, so Iâm not going further here.
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Not going into Janissaries topic again. But need to stop AI to generate false info, this depends on micro and the fight favors elite Janissaries with equal skill.
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Bad comparison of units. The above ânewâ units cost more in of themselves which somewhat accounts for their lower upgrade cost. Conquistador is a bad unit of choice for your point as its recourse cost for elite upgrade is more than any of the ânew unitsâ. This proves my points that units that cost more have cheaper upgrades. Thus you either need a better comparison or your original point is wrong.
UU elite upgrade costs are overall too expensive in the game when theyâre already bottlenecked by the castle requirement.
I donât think paying 1800 resources makes sense for Elite Conquistadors.
Conquistador, a unit OP in castle age, has no business also dominating in imperial age and thus elite should be an expensive upgrade. Conquistadors are a very powerful unit which even beats Hussite wagons, 3 shots monks and vils, and has the mobility of a CA. We donât need to let that unit get stronger the instant a Spanish player reaches imp. If we did, then we would have to deal with OP unit all castle age through hyper late game.
Mameluk elite upgrade was already one of and still is one of the cheapest and iirc Mayans still costs no gold⊠anyway what does any of this slop have yo do with a topic calles JURCHEN UU
We are debating whether castle units should be better than their generic counterparts, I.e, Boyar and Paladin. As a result we are now comparing prices for imp upgrades.
Essentially we are looking for precedent for a castle unit being worse than its generic counterpart which I would argue that there isnât and thus the Iron Pagoda should be better than the Paladin. We are not off topic but rather debating a premise of our arguments, i.e, generic units being better than castle units.
If you want to look for that just look at the infantry, most of them are worse than Champion. There are also unique cavalry units that donât overpowered Paladin like Konnik, Coustilier, Keshik. Boyar, Monaspa and especially Leitis are extreme cases.
Also, donât forget Cataphract
My definition of a brillantly crafted Castle Age unique unit is:
- Bringing an exclusive combat value over their Imperial Age generic counterpart in Castle Age, but also not feeling like a direct upgrade of a generic unit in Imperial Age. Genoese Crossbowman fits that description.
- Not copying or competing with an existing UUâs main selling point. Gbetos, Ghulams, and Jian Swordsman do not fit that, sadly.
- Not being very niche, thus giving an interesting choice to players whether to go with FC into UU or 3TC boom.
- Being slightly harder but not impossible to deal with using their generic trash counters. Composite Bowman fits that.
- Reasonable elite cost.
- Not having too much HP + armor if itâs ranged. Itâs even worse if the unit doesnât cost food.
- Not being too gimmicky.
On the topic, I think Elite IP could get +1 Attack. But then their cost also needs to tweak. I think 80f/55g â 65f/70g is better. So they will be cheapest in food among all 3 Jurchens Cav but more expensive on gold and hence wonât compete with Jurchens SL.
Am i the only one to think this is a weird design for a supposed anti melee unit?
All of these kill Paladins very easily cost effectively. And these got more nerfs in the past than Monaspas or Leiciai (while Boyars were really bad before).
Iron pagoda doesnât really strike me as an anti-melee unit. Its shield mechanic might block a melee strike, but thatâs mitigated by relatively low melee armor. So it does better against high-damage slow-hitting halberdiers than other cavalry units, but isnât all that much better against most other melee units. Iâve been playing with it in a few games recently (mostly against AI), and itâs not a bad unit. A bit pricey to get into (castles are expensive, and iron pagodas arenât cheap), but otherwise a pretty good and well-rounded unit. And you can get good value from the regenerating castles as well.
Basically, it seems to play like a generally-effective elite unit. But itâs not so elite to easily overrun an opponent.
I also think they are weirdly designed, and tbh a bit faulty. I donât understand them having 3 PA, even for standard one in Castle Age. And as I said, the food vs gold cost ration doesnât make sense.
Probably thatâs why they are designed to lose against Paladin in 1v1. Other Paladin killer doesnât hold up that good against Halb.
Probably because Iron Pagodas are notable for being very heavily armored. So they need to have decent armor. In melee, thatâs represented by their blocking mechanic (allowing them to get away with lower armor there), but the blocking mechanic doesnât apply to ranged attacks, so they get a high pierce armor. Without the pierce armor, they wouldnât act like a heavily armored unit, instead dying quite easily to ranged units. Plus, the pierce armor distinguishes them a little more from steppe lancers, who tend to be weaker against ranged units (especially in castle age).
In that case, they should be slower than Knight. But they are faster instead. Balance should be more priority over historical accuracy.