Maybe, though I don’t know which UU could replace them for the Franks. Plus the francisca had a special place in the Frankish armies in Early Middle Ages and I don’t think any other people made such an extensive use of throwing axes. Honestly schizophrenic design is one of the reasons why I think AoE2 should have been split into two different games, one for the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages and the other for Central and Late Middle Ages and Early Moderne Era.
Not sure if it’s a good idea to rename such an old and beloved unit.
They didn’t remove the silly horns from the Berserk either.
A ranged Infantry unit would work well for Infantry civilisations and would also fit well into an Early Medieval themed DLC.
The Franks could still have the strongest Throwing Axeman because of their unique technology and their complete Infantry techtree.
The new regional Throwing Axeman could also be weakened and the unique technology improved so they only get back to full strength after a Castle is build.
The new unique Unit for the Franks would be a very different challenge. Maybe the Frankish Paladin that was originally planned as their unique unit. A lot of people would be happy about that change but many others would hate it.
Alternatively they could be named Gendarme. That was the historical French late medieval super heavy cavalry.
That’s also the name of the Napoleonic heavy cavalry (that’s why they appear in AoE3 too) and modern French military police.
The other civilisations that could get the Throwing Axeman could be the Vikings, Goths and new civilisations like the Saxons (Pre HRE Germans and pre Norman English)
Especially for the Vikings that could be a cool unit. The Norse in AoM also have Axe throwers.
But I think there are better candidates for Unique Units that could become Regional Units.
Unique Units that could become Regional Units
Huskarl
- Available to Goths, Vikings and the new Saxons
- Available in the Barracks starting in Castle Age next to the Militia and Spearman line
- Countered by Cavalry and other Infantry
- Weaker then the Unique Unit (maybe -2 piercing armour like in AoK)
- New Goth Castle Age Unique Technology returns them to their old strength (Anarchy is no longer needed)
The Viking version would potentially be a little too strong since it would also have an attack bonus against Cavalry. But the Viking unique technology could also be reworked to only effect the Berserk again or maybe the Berserk and the Militia line.
But then again they wouldn’t be that cheap (80 Food, 40 Gold) for them anyway, since they don’t have the Goth bonus.
The new Goth unique unit could be something very different like a cavalry unit. The Goths used a lot of cavalry in real life so why not give them at last one of them. Not sure what role it would play and how to generally rebalance the Goths.
It would be similar to the Hindustani that got a unique unit that is very different from their usual techtree.
For the new Saxons they could be a more all around armoured unit by getting additional Melee instead of Pierce Armour, similar to the real Saxon Huskarls Making them something like 2/4 → 2/6. Kinda like an expensive Serjeant (+20 Food and +5 Gold cost) that is better against Archers specifically.
This idea would obviously be incompatible with the idea of making the Throwing Axeman a regional unit or the Vikings would end up with two new Infantry units. That would require a big rework of this civilisation and I don’t think old fans would like that.
Cataphract
- Available to the Byzantines, Persians and Chinese.
- Replaces Knight in the Stable.
- Would lose some of it’s Cavalry Armour and some of it’s bonus damage against Infantry.
- Byzantines would get it back as a civilisation bonus.
- Persians would get a new civilisation bonus that makes them stronger against Archers (replaces their Team Bonus)
- Chinese wouldn’t get any bonus (since they don’t have the Paladin right now)
New Unique Unit for the Byzantines could be a Flame Thrower. Basically the Land version for the Fire Ship. Their Unique Technology would apply to them too.
Missionary
Just why not. They are already a secondary unique unit that is available outside the Castle by default.
No idea what new civilisation they could work well for though.
This idea is simply based on the fact that nothing would change for the Spanish if they were a regional unit.
Slinger
- Available to Inca and potential new civilisations like Chimu
- Nothing would change about them
- The Chimu could have a Unique Elite version instead of the two Unique Technologies the Inca have to improve them
Similar to then Missionary they are already outside the Castle but in contrast to them they would actually make sense as a Regional Unit for South America in general.
Boyar
- Available to the Slaves (if Split they would be available to Ruthenians, Muscovites or something like that), Bulgaria, Lithuania or new civilisations like the Wallachias/Romanians (the unit is Romanian in AoE3)
- Replace the Knight line (Alternatively a unique Upgrade to the Knight)
- Would get their Melee armour reduced
- Lithuanian Boyars would benefit from the Relic bonus, and they would ironically be countered by their unique unit
- Bulgarians already have a unique cavalry unit so maybe not the best match
Lithuanians would become quit interesting with having 2 Regional Units in their Stable.
If the Slaves get split giving them new unique units wouldn’t be that hard, I guess.
Summery
Some unique units could be turned into a regional unit in an upcoming DLC like they did with the Indian unique unit.
Huskarl could be part of a early Medieval DLC.
Cataphract of a Chinese DLC (a lot of people want that to happen).
Slinger would be part of a South American DLC that would finally give Inca the correct architecture set (a lot of people want that one too).
Boyar an Easter European DLC but I feel like that area already has a lot of civilisations already.
2 Likes
That’s actually would be a badass unit right here, wholly agree with this.
Illustration by Christos Giannopoulos
1 Like
It could be given to the Portuguese. Alternatively, the Spanish could get access to the caravel, and both of them could have the cavalry archer line replaced with the Genitour. But doing all of those thing would probably be a bit too much, making them quite similar to each other and different to every other civ.
EDIT: Also Flamethrower would be a cool UU for the Byzantines, but they need an attack bonus against siege units in addition to the fire ships bonus against buildings and, well, ships, the latter of which may rarely prove useful on land.
Wouldn’t that make them a little too similar?
But the Genitour is a Skirmisher.
But that would be a candidate for a regional unit. It would also not impact balance that much since it’s already a Team Bonus unit so it can’t be OP in the hands of any civilisations anyway.
If it was a regional unit it would be available to the Berbers, Spanish and Portuguese I guess.
Berbers would need a new Teambonus then though. Would be strange if the Teambonus is a unit that also other civilisations can train.
but tbh. maybe the Imperial Skirmisher should also be a Regional Upgrade like the Paladin already kinda is.
But that’s a different topic.
That unit was mentioned in a bunch of threads in the AoE4 forums as a potential unique unit for the Byzantines there.
There is already a Flamethrower unit in the game actually. It’s a Scenario Editor only unit though.
Ironically it’s very good against stone defence.
The unique unit of the Byzantines should have different stats though.
I think it should keep the attack bonus against ships, even if that’s not useful, because people kinda expect it to be good against ships in the few cases where you might happen to use them that way.
Maybe also generally give them an attack that ignores armour but isn’t very high. It doesn’t really make sense that armour could block fire.
Something like
- Attack: 2 → 3 (ignores armour)
- vs Ship: 3 → 4
- vs Buildings: 3 → 4
- Rate of Fire: 0.25
- Range: 3 (increased by Greek Fire)
They would do 12 DPS in Imperial (nearly 2x as much as a Campion with 6.5 DPS)
Against buildings they would do 28 DPS (nearly halve as much Siege Rams with 50 DPS).
Considering that this unit would be an Infantry unit with low armour it would be vulnerably to arrows from buildings but they would also be easier to mass and to move then rams making them rather good to burn down entire bases.
Maybe give them the funny feature that they explode when they die causing a little friendly fire making them a little harder to use in large groups.
For balance they could get a minimal range too but that might be tricky with their low maximum range.
They would be countered by ranged units or even fast melee units if they get a minimal range.
Yeah, but I heard several times that historically the christian people in Iberia adopted genitour to compensate the lack of skilled horse archers in their ranks after the Arabs and Berbers arrived.
Several people suggested that Kasbah should be turned into a team bonus, as it already applies to allies. In this case, Berbers would need a new UT instead.
I still think Flamethrowers should have a bonus against siege, as apart from bombard canons they are all mostly made of wood and other flamable parts. It doesn’t mean the bonus against ship would be removed, it’s just that it would be so rarely useful I think we can afford an aditional bonus.
Minimal range would be weird unless fireships were also given one, I think.
Not only would a flamethrower unit be cool the Byzantines can finally have two unique techs that isn’t dependent on what type of map its at.
Clearly the Flamethrower in the game is a Chinese stuff and only used by a Chinese AI player in the Le Loi campaign.
I would rather give the Byzantines (and their allies) the Fire Tower, and the Greek Fire could benefit it.
1 Like
A lot of units don’t really have the correct historical roles in AoE2 (or any AoE for that matter).
Making the Genitour a Cavalry Archer replacement would be a greater rebalance then keeping it as it is. And people are already used to it’s current role.
That would make sense. UTs that benefit the whole team are kinda strange anyway. That would be a simple yet useful team bonus.
And it wouldn’t change much about the balance since it already kinda is one.
I’m not sure if it would be powerful enough against siege already since siege has low HP and the attack would ignore armour.
But a little bonus damage can be added if needed.
I thought of it as a balance option. Since there are no melee ships there is no need of a minimal range on water.
But there are many melee land units. If the Flame Thrower didn’t have a minimal range then it would be devastating to melee units.
I wasn’t thinking of using that unit. The link was just an example.
I was thinking of giving them an infantry unit that carries a small flame thrower.
That would be an awesome team bonus (if the tower was buffed because atm it’s pretty bad). But then they would lose their current Team Bonus.
But this would also play into their defensive theme.
Maybe make the Greek Fire Technology (that should be made more expensive) unlock Flame Throwers and Fire Towers.
This way they can’t be used in Early Castle, preventing them being used in an early rush where they might be hard to counter.
There is no need to change team bonuses. This team effect can be part of Greek Fire, like Kasbah.
After Greek fire is researched, in addition to the player’s Fire Ships becoming better, the player and allies can also build Fire Towers.
1 Like
That could have some impact on team game and closed map balance though so some other things would need to be adjusted too.
Not sure if giving them 3 towers helps with it’s current status as a “beginner” civilisation.
Maybe it would actually help because new players like to turtle.
What role could the Fire Tower fill between the Keep and Bombard tower?
Anti Ram? Could be a little OP.
Compared with Bombard Tower that costs basically same, Fire Tower cause melee damage specially and can track moving targets naturally, but the range and DPS is lower than Bombard Tower a lots when against units (especially non-moving targets).
Of course, the stats of Fire Tower itself can be tweaked to fit the requires. But even now, it doesn’t benefit from Murder Holes so Rams can still kill it when getting close.
I think with the Fire Tower, the Greek fire on land is represented, so no need for flame throwing soldiers. If we really need a new unit for Byzantines, I’d rather design a new close-range anti-ship ship unit as a new generic unit, maybe a melee boarding ship or a fast-firing archer ship. Then, make the Fire Ship a Byzantine UU and maybe tweak its stats better.
The Flame Thrower was supposed to replace the Cataphract in the castle because that will be moved to the Stable as a Regional Unit.
Making the Fire Ship unique to the Byzantines would make sense from a historic point of view but that would be part of a major naval rebalance I guess.
Current naval combat is pretty bad, but that is an issue all AoE games have in common.
I am so happy that this is [just for fun]. The game would become unrecognizable if these suggestions were implemented
1 Like
The just for fun threads are pools of ideas.
They are not supposed to all be implemented.
But an inspiration for designing new civilisations.
There is like a >50% chance that the next DLC will have a new regional unit again, besides the obvious unique units.
It happened before that features of some DLC civilisations appeared in one of those threads before. It could be a coincidence but it at last proves that some of those ideas are good.
1 Like
I don’t support it. The generic Knight line has represented the own heavily armoured cavalry for every civilization.
At most, skin mods could be provided. Do not make different stats and name.
I’m sure many users have already told you this.
3 Likes
Not entirely, there are reports of use of greek fire on smaller cases by, I think Saracens and Malay ships. Maybe it wasn’t exactly thanks to the same recipe, though, especially in the Malay case.
The new Indian civilisations don’t have access to the Knight line.
Also they have the Elephant Archer instead of the Cavalry Archer.
Changing some of the original AoK civilisations is obviously a bigger step then doing this for new civilisations but it’s not something completely new never seen before thing.
It could also be turned into a regional unit too, but Malay are certainly not the same region.
This is the result of inheriting the FE Indians.
If they can’t even get the generic Knights, how can they get other type of heavy cavalry at Stables.
I do not believed that the Saracens could have Fire Ships as a kind of regional unit with the few recorded uses of Greek fire, especially compared to the iconic use of Greek fire by the Byzantines.
Your suggestions are really great!
Here are my suggestions and some minor corrections to yours:
Huskarl
Regional Unit for: Goths and brand new Saxons civ
Cataphract
Regional Unit for: Byzantines and Persians
Boyar
Regional Unit for: Ruthenians (curently Slavs) and brand new Romanians civ
Coustillier
Regional Unit for: Franks and Burgundians
Župan
Regional Unit for: brand new Croatians civ and brand new Serbs civ
Longboat
Regional Unit for: brand new Swedes civ and Vikings
Shared units
Here I will give units that, like Condottiero from Italians civ, can be shared with allies:
Silesian Knight
Shared Unit for: Bohemians
Landsknecht
Shared Unit for: brand new Bavarians civ
Swiss Pikeman
Shared Unit for: brand new Bavarians civ
Stradiot
Shared Unit for: brand new Venetians civ