[Just for fun] Unique bonuses for hypothetical new civs

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

I asked if you thought it is OP, currently, present tense. Not past tense. It WAS OP, now it isn’t OP. This is a 10% speed boost, when within 2 tiles of pikes

which will let you pillage longer and then use the boosted speed to get away without fear of reprisal.
furthermore aoe2 is NOT a game of activated abilities like sc2 or warcraft.

@GusTank04

It is very situational, and can help get out of sticky situations. I’ve seen quite a few games where a scout rush went south because the scouts got trapped by spears during a raid.

yeah well if someone lets the spears get that close sounds like that was a mistake of there own making.

@GusTank04

I never said “unique is good” I said just because it is unique doesn’t mean it is bad.

and my point is that just because unique doesn’t make it a GOOD THING either. as a matter of a fact, in the scope of aoe2, something trying to be unique has pretty much turned out to not be a good thing a lot.

@GusTank04

There are plenty of “unique” bonuses and UT that aren’t bad, just because there are some that are doesn’t mean we can’t get more.

no, they are different. that doesn’t neccesarily make them unique. unique within the scope of aoe2 means something outside of the convential. and giving a civ a bonus that acts like an activated ability would fit that a too a t.

@GusTank04

And apparently AoE3 isn’t played through Microsoft store? There is a reason AoE3 is getting support while AoE1 isn’t, or at least that’s how I see it

not really no. heres the thing - when aoe de came out the game was ONLY available through the store, so a large chunk of the owners have it from that. but that’s not true for aoe2 de and aoe3 de becauSe Microsoft decided putting them on steam right from the get go was a better move.

@GusTank04

Is Age of Mythology on Microsoft store? Not last time I checked, and Age3 DE is, so i’m pretty sure it’s more than 1700 players.

again - most people aren’t going to be buying the game on microsoft store. as a matter of a fact there was a large backlash against it with aoe de to begin with.
furthermore again - age of mythology came out on steam 7 years ago. aoe3 de 6 months ago. congratulations you’re barely beating a game that originally came out in 2002 and your game got rereleased with updated everything 6 months ago. real big achievement. i mean heck, aoe2 HD (not DE) had 9300 players yesterday. only a couple thousand more then aoe3 DE did…and that’s thje OLD UNSUPPORTED version of aoe2.

[GusTank04]

@MatCauthon3

furthermore aoe2 is NOT a game of activated abilities like sc2 or warcraft.

So you still think Cumans bonus is OP. I am done arguing with you about this, it’s pointless

@MatCauthon3

furthermore aoe2 is NOT a game of activated abilities like sc2 or warcraft.

Actually they were planning on adding abilities like this. The abilities would’ve added to the strategic depth of the game

@MatCauthon3

yeah well if someone lets the spears get that close sounds like that was a mistake of there own making.

Never said it wasn’t

@MatCauthon3

and my point is that just because unique doesn’t make it a GOOD THING either. as a matter of a fact, in the scope of aoe2, something trying to be unique has pretty much turned out to not be a good thing a lot.

So you would prefer a game with everyone having copy paste bonuses? Good to know

@MatCauthon3

no, they are different. that doesn’t neccesarily make them unique. unique within the scope of aoe2 means something outside of the convential. and giving a civ a bonus that acts like an activated ability would fit that a too a t.

Gaining attack when you have a relic garrisoned isn’t outside of the convential? Cavalry ignores armor? Seeing enemy positions at start of match? Cavalry generates gold while attacking? Sheep spawn at newly constructed TC? LoS is shared with team at start of match? Fish traps have unlimited food? Unit costs half a pop point? Docks can shoot arrows? Villagers kill wolves in one hit? Villagers get infantry upgrades? Krepost wasn’t unique? All this isn’t considered “unique” to you?
Btw, everyone complains about the single use UTs of the Burgundians and Sicilians and that it is Age3 territory, not Age2. Three words. Vietnamese Paper Money.

@MatCauthon3

again - most people aren’t going to be buying the game on microsoft store. as a matter of a fact there was a large backlash against it with aoe de to begin with.
furthermore again - age of mythology came out on steam 7 years ago. aoe3 de 6 months ago. congratulations you’re barely beating a game that originally came out in 2002 and your game got rereleased with updated everything 6 months ago. real big achievement. i mean heck, aoe2 HD (not DE) had 9300 players yesterday. only a couple thousand more then aoe3 DE did…and that’s thje OLD UNSUPPORTED version of aoe2.

Aoe2 has always been the fan favorite, what is the point of saying HD has more players than Age3. I’m not that surprised. Also, thanks for bringing that up, because there are still people playing original so we add the two numbers together and you get 8’893, plus whoever plays it on Microsoft. And yes, ther are plenty of people who would’ve bought it on Microsoft, there’s almost always at least one xbox player in age2 unranked lobbies

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

So you still think Cumans bonus is OP. I am done arguing with you about this, it’s pointless

no. i think giving a civ an extra 10% speed to get out of dodge when a unit gets close to htem is overpowered. i think Cumans are fine on that bonus but its literally only 5% extra in imperial age (and only in imperial age). you’re talking about giving them 10% extra any time a spear unit gets close.

@GusTank04

Actually they were planning on adding abilities like this. The abilities would’ve added to the strategic depth of the game

and they decided against it - food for thought. aoe2 already has strategic depth.

@GusTank04

So you would prefer a game with everyone having copy paste bonuses? Good to know

no i would prefer bonuses to stay within the confines of aoe2 instead of trying new stuff that clearly isn’t working.

@GusTank04

Gaining attack when you have a relic garrisoned isn’t outside of the convential?

and look how that’s working. the bonus has been nerfed and people want to nerf it again. its a highly contraversial bonus.

@GusTank04

Cavalry ignores armor?

and the leitis has been nerfed into the ground hasn’t it? i mean come on, how often have you seen it in pro games since the change?

@GusTank04

Sheep spawn at newly constructed TC?

and again had to be nerfed because it was too overbearing.

@GusTank04

Cavalry generates gold while attacking?

and again a unit that has been nerfed and how are its stats compared to other heavy cavalry units?

@GusTank04

LoS is shared with team at start of match?

only if you start after feudal or after. which means not standard games with standard starts.

@GusTank04

Fish traps have unlimited food?

situational bonus on a middle of the road civ and only applies on water maps. there are much better bonuses out there. also - heaven forbid at least one civ has a reason to use fish traps.

@GusTank04

Unit costs half a pop point?

and thats used so often isn’t it? i can’t remember the last time i saw karambits see play.

@GusTank04

Docks can shoot arrows?

nerfed to the point its a laughable bonus

@GusTank04

Villagers kill wolves in one hit?

and now useless 99% of the time.

@GusTank04

Villagers get infantry upgrades?

and people want this nerfed don’t they? look around - people cry about incas all the time.

@GusTank04

Krepost wasn’t unique?

and was nerfed and its not even as good as a castle in many regards.

@GusTank04

All this isn’t considered “unique” to you?

and how many of those have been nerfed into the ground, are underwhelming, or are contentious among the fanbase? pretty much everything you just mentioned. which just proves my point - unique has a history of not working or getting backlash.

@GusTank04

Btw, everyone complains about the single use UTs of the Burgundians and Sicilians and that it is Age3 territory, not Age2. Three words. Vietnamese Paper Money.

and people don’t like paper money either.

@GusTank04

Aoe2 has always been the fan favorite, what is the point of saying HD has more players than Age3. I’m not that surprised

because a game that is no longer supported, receiving updates, or even bug fixes, literally has more players then aoe3. that alone should show you just how little people think of aoe3.

@GusTank04

Also, thanks for bringing that up, because there are still people playing original so we add the two numbers together and you get 8’893, plus whoever plays it on Microsoft.

aoe3 between the original and de has about 7500 players yesterday not 8900. not sure where your numbers are coming from.

@GusTank04

And yes, ther are plenty of people who would’ve bought it on Microsoft, there’s almost always at least one xbox player in age2 unranked lobbies

yes, but they are in the MINORITY, which is my point. aoe de didn’t release on steam right away, so a much larger percentage of the owners of that game are on microsoft store.

[Gaudio3342]

@GusTank04

All this isn’t considered “unique” to you?

There are “good unique” and “bad unique” features. It’s highly subjective, but imo activated abilites are in this game of the bad unique kind.

@GusTank04

Three words. Vietnamese Paper Money.

Awful UT. Should have been smth totally diferent.

[GusTank04]

@MatCauthon3

no. i think giving a civ an extra 10% speed to get out of dodge when a unit gets close to htem is overpowered. i think Cumans are fine on that bonus but its literally only 5% extra in imperial age (and only in imperial age). you’re talking about giving them 10% extra any time a spear unit gets close.

They get +5% in feudal, than in Castle is goes away, than Imp they get +5% again. They get the +5% at all times, my bonus would only give them +10% when near spear units. It is only a useful bonus in the early/early-mid game, where running from spears/pikes happens often

@MatCauthon3

and they decided against it - food for thought. aoe2 already has strategic depth.

Fair enough

@MatCauthon3

no i would prefer bonuses to stay within the confines of aoe2 instead of trying new stuff that clearly isn’t working.

Won’t be long till the bonus well is gone dry with that logic, then where will we be?

@MatCauthon3

and look how that’s working. the bonus has been nerfed and people want to nerf it again. its a highly contraversial bonus.

For the majority of the playerbase, it is not OP
Besides, it is all how they incorporate the bonus. Just because it is OP or UP doesn’t make it any less unique. OP bonuses can be nerfed and UP bonuses can be buffed, just like any other bonus

@MatCauthon3

and again had to be nerfed because it was too overbearing.

And how is it now?

@MatCauthon3

and the leitis has been nerfed into the ground hasn’t it? i mean come on, how often have you seen it in pro games since the change?

Here and there, but yes, very rare. I don’t think we should make balance changes according to how the pro games go, they are but a fraction of the playerbase

@MatCauthon3

only if you start after feudal or after. which means not standard games with standard starts.

Portuguese? Are you sure you know what I’m talking about

@MatCauthon3

situational bonus on a middle of the road civ and only applies on water maps. there are much better bonuses out there. also - heaven forbid at least one civ has a reason to use fish traps.

“But it is situational so it is fine”. But wait, +10% when spears are close is situational too. And I never said that it is a top tier bonus, I was pointing out unique bonuses

@MatCauthon3

nerfed to the point its a laughable bonus

Same can be said for other not unique bonuses

@MatCauthon3

and now useless 99% of the time.

It is a strong bonus on Black Forest, and a few other maps I would say. Goths +10 pop cap in Imp Age is useless 99% of the time, seeing as matches rarely get to Imp age anymore, and it doesn’t help that much with 200 pop

@MatCauthon3

and people want this nerfed don’t they? look around - people cry about incas all the time.

People cry about plenty of bonuses, unique or not

@MatCauthon3

and was nerfed and its not even as good as a castle in many regards.

It was never meant to be as good as a castle, where did you ever get that idea?

@MatCauthon3

and people don’t like paper money either.

Didn’t see people complaining with the same arguments though

@MatCauthon3

because a game that is no longer supported, receiving updates, or even bug fixes, literally has more players then aoe3. that alone should show you just how little people think of aoe3.

Battlefront 2. It gained millions of players after cancelation, because people enjoyed it. Age 2 has always been the fan favorite, like I said. It is not surprising that people still play it, I play it plenty just for nostalgia.

@MatCauthon3

aoe3 between the original and de has about 7500 players yesterday not 8900. not sure where your numbers are coming from.

Steam charts. 24 hour peak for original is 1’980, DE is 6’915.

@MatCauthon3

yes, but they are in the MINORITY, which is my point. aoe de didn’t release on steam right away, so a much larger percentage of the owners of that game are on microsoft store.

Just because they are in the Minority doesn’t mean they don’t count. 500 at the least, still adds 500, whether it is the minority or not

@Gaudio3342

There are “good unique” and “bad unique” features. It’s highly subjective, but imo activated abilites are in this game of the bad unique kind.

In your opinion, I obviously think differently

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

Won’t be long till the bonus well is gone dry with that logic, then where will we be?

there is such a thing as too many civs.

@GusTank04

And how is it now?

i think the unit is weak and held back by a gimmicky bonus.

@GusTank04

Here and there, but yes, very rare. I don’t think we should make balance changes according to how the pro games go, they are but a fraction of the playerbase

and i think the pros are the ones who can best use stuff to the maximum potential. look at chinese - if we went based on the average player they would absolutely need love, but based on the pros they are one of the best civs in the game.
why? because the pros know how to actually take advantage of a civs strengths.

@GusTank04

“But it is situational so it is fine”. But wait, +10% when spears are close is situational too. And I never said that it is a top tier bonus, I was pointing out unique bonuses

no, one is situational in that it doesn’t apply on most maps in the game. the other can apply in pretty much any game that is played.

@GusTank04

It is a strong bonus on Black Forest, and a few other maps I would say. Goths +10 pop cap in Imp Age is useless 99% of the time, seeing as matches rarely get to Imp age anymore, and it doesn’t help that much with 200 pop

black forest has been played less then 40,000 times during the current patch. to put that into perspective, Arabia has over 12 times those numbers. and the higher the skill level, the less likely to play blackforest, with around 13000 games played above 1250 elo. that’s right. that means that over 66% of all BF games are played by people sub 1250 elo.

@GusTank04

It was never meant to be as good as a castle, where did you ever get that idea?

i know that - but the point is that i can’t train trebs, research technologies, etc at the kreposts. as a matter of fact there has been people who have asked for that to happen because they feel krepost are underwhelming.

@GusTank04

Didn’t see people complaining with the same arguments though

i see the argument about paper money pop up every couple months.

[GusTank04]

@MatCauthon3

there is such a thing as too many civs.

I agree, but at this rate, we will be getting plenty of unique bonuses, whether you like it or not

@MatCauthon3

i think the unit is weak and held back by a gimmicky bonus.

I think you mean the Leitis or Keshik, I was responding to the sheep bonus

@MatCauthon3

i think the unit is weak and held back by a gimmicky bonus.

For the Keshik, yeah it is weak, but the Leitis isn’t weak imo. It is just overshadowed by their Paladins.

@MatCauthon3

and i think the pros are the ones who can best use stuff to the maximum potential. look at chinese - if we went based on the average player they would absolutely need love, but based on the pros they are one of the best civs in the game.
why? because the pros know how to actually take advantage of a civs strengths.

And make civs OP or UP for the rest of the playerbase? Smart

@MatCauthon3

no, one is situational in that it doesn’t apply on most maps in the game. the other can apply in pretty much any game that is played.

Only in the early game though and only if you succeed in rushing the enemy. Situational

@MatCauthon3

black forest has been played less then 40,000 times during the current patch. to put that into perspective, Arabia has over 12 times those numbers. and the higher the skill level, the less likely to play blackforest, with around 13000 games played above 1250 elo. that’s right. that means that over 66% of all BF games are played by people sub 1250 elo.

Arabia is like one of the biggest maps that people play of course you would compare it to that.

@MatCauthon3

i know that - but the point is that i can’t train trebs, research technologies, etc at the kreposts. as a matter of fact there has been people who have asked for that to happen because they feel krepost are underwhelming.

I think the Krepost is more of a spammable building, you get a castle for techs and then Kreposts for Konniks to easily be spammed. Trebs being trainable could be nice for a future update though, you are right about that.

@MatCauthon3

i see the argument about paper money pop up every couple months.

When was the last one?

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

I agree, but at this rate, we will be getting plenty of unique bonuses, whether you like it or not

great. more bad bonuses incoming.

@GusTank04

I think you mean the Leitis or Keshik, I was responding to the sheep bonus

all 3 are gimmicky. look at what tatars winrate is now post sheep bonus nerf.

@GusTank04

And make civs OP or UP for the rest of the playerbase? Smart

at lower levels you can literally win with tatar long swords and teuton cavalry archers - whats that mean? it means that people just need to get better.

@GusTank04

Only in the early game though and only if you succeed in rushing the enemy. Situational

no not only in the early game - its useful for your knights in castle age and everything in imperial too.

@GusTank04

Arabia is like one of the biggest maps that people play of course you would compare it to that.

doesn’t matter - point is that Black Forest isn’t played much. the Magyar bonus rarely comes into play.

@GusTank04

When was the last one?

shrug, it comes up every now and then when people talk about balance patches and what not.

[GusTank04]

@MatCauthon3

all 3 are gimmicky. look at what tatars winrate is now post sheep bonus nerf.

It is still a decent bonus, free food is good whenever unless it comes in Imp

@MatCauthon3

no not only in the early game - its useful for your knights in castle age and everything in imperial too.

What are you talking about, it is only for scouts

@MatCauthon3

shrug, it comes up every now and then when people talk about balance patches and what not.

I’ll be watching then

[DarthPyro4335]

Franks needs a nerf again, 130,000 games as per your beloved stat website and still 53% is more OP than a civ with 30k games and 58% winrate

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

It is still a decent bonus, free food is good whenever unless it comes in Imp

the problem with tatars was they needed something to help them get to castle age - that was why the previous sheep bonus (including two spawning in feudal) was so good. those two free sheep in feudal helped them.

@GusTank04

What are you talking about, it is only for scouts

show me one bonus that applies to scouts that doesn’t apply to light cav or hussars?

@DarthPyro4335

Franks needs a nerf again, 130,000 games as per your beloved stat website and still 53% is more OP than a civ with 30k games and 58% winrate

you talking to me? if so go check my balance thread.

[GusTank04]

@MatCauthon3

show me one bonus that applies to scouts that doesn’t apply to light cav or hussars?

Light cav and Hussars it applies to yes. Scout Line, sorry.

@MatCauthon3

the problem with tatars was they needed something to help them get to castle age - that was why the previous sheep bonus (including two spawning in feudal) was so good. those two free sheep in feudal helped them.

So you say it’s a win lose situation, if they get a bonus that helps them to castle age they become OP, if they don’t they become UP.

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

Light cav and Hussars it applies to yes. Scout Line, sorry.

so how is that only useful in the ealry game?

@GusTank04

So you say it’s a win lose situation, if they get a bonus that helps them to castle age they become OP, if they don’t they become UP.

not really - they could simply knock the bonus down to just 2 free sheep upon hitting feudal and they become a solid civ without being over the top. no extra sheep after that.

[GusTank04]

@MatCauthon3

not really - they could simply knock the bonus down to just 2 free sheep upon hitting feudal and they become a solid civ without being over the top. no extra sheep after that.

It would still be unique though, so according to you it would be bad in some way

@MatCauthon3

so how is that only useful in the ealry game?

Depends on other bonuses and tech tree. There are plenty of civs that have a strong scout rush, but does that make them spam Light cav/Hussar the rest of the game?

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

It would still be unique though, so according to you it would be bad in some way

i didn’t say all unique was bad. but unique that deviates from the standard of aoe2 has a history of being problematic one way or another. they need to stop trying to be too cute. the first implementation proved too strong, so they overnerfed it by taking away the good part of it.

@GusTank04

Depends on other bonuses and tech tree. There are plenty of civs that have a strong scout rush, but does that make them spam Light cav/Hussar the rest of the game?

not necessarily but a bonus like that would be dead useful for raiding.
even britons use light cav from time to time and they lack bloodlines for the love of god.

[letmepickthis]

Age up only costs wood and food. Gold cost replaced with wood cost.

[GusTank04]

@MatCauthon3

not necessarily but a bonus like that would be dead useful for raiding.
even britons use light cav from time to time and they lack bloodlines for the love of god.

For raiding, assuming you can even get inside their base to raid. Situational

@MatCauthon3

i didn’t say all unique was bad. but unique that deviates from the standard of aoe2 has a history of being problematic one way or another. they need to stop trying to be too cute. the first implementation proved too strong, so they overnerfed it by taking away the good part of it.

So it is not the unique bonuses that are bad, it is the implementation of them by the devs

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

For raiding, assuming you can even get inside their base to raid. Situational

anyone who says light cavalry line raiding is situational clearly doesn’t watch the game enough.

@GusTank04

So it is not the unique bonuses that are bad, it is the implementation of them by the devs

no. you want unique do something within the confines of aoe2. stop trying to shoehorn other games into it when it clearly doesn’t work.

[GusTank04]

@MatCauthon3

anyone who says light cavalry line raiding is situational clearly doesn’t watch the game enough.

You claimed Britons raid with LC from “time to time”, but it isn’t situational. Ok

@MatCauthon3

no. you want unique do something within the confines of aoe2. stop trying to shoehorn other games into it when it clearly doesn’t work.

I’m not shoehorning other games into it

[MatCauthon3]

@GusTank04

You claimed Britons raid with LC from “time to time”, but it isn’t situational. Ok

i said even britons. britons light cavalry suck. but they still see use. now imagine if you threw a bonus like this onto them? i bet you’d be more likely to raid with them.

@GusTank04

I’m not shoehorning other games into it

what do you call adding in triggered abilities?