It is giving the gurjaras camels wayy too much power against other camels. And on top of that they have 25% cheaper camels.
No,
They lack blast furnace + no pikeman, they need to have strong camels to deal with mounted units.
9 Likes
No, they have 25% cheaper food for camels. And thats only after building a castle and researching a tech.
They also lack blast furnace and dont have pikes
5 Likes
The real strength of Gurjara camels comes from +50% bonus attack and +4 melee armor. It doesn’t come from food discount or faster creation or Camel Scout (though these are pluses).
Blast Furnace really matters for camels only against archers and siege, for which they have Shrivamsha riders.
1 Like
totally aginst that. Give them back the +2 black furnace and get rid of that bonus damage to camels. But thats my opinion.
1 Like
So after you’ve nerfed their only anti cav option what do you plan on doing to balance them? Seeing as they dont have pikes or knights and their archers arenr very good either.
Youre leaving the civ without a good power unit to use at all
4 Likes
Imo camels in general don’t need bonus damage vs each other.
I also see no historical reason why they should.
ofc this would then imply that some UUs namely mameluke and camel archer would need a slight overhaul but for me this causes the same weird interaction like the with skirms:
If 2 camel civs fught each other it often cumulates to pure camel v camel combat and often just one snowball battle decides everything. Cause it makes no sense to tech in something else when the units deal bonus damage vs each other - the danger to lose that one big engagement then is too high so it’s better to stick with the camels.
Imo both camels and skirms shouldn’t have bonus damage against themselves.
Great question. The camels are still cheaper when you reaserch the tech and or give it to them for free and give them back the black furnace tech. they will be like turk situation with better early game. Thier camels are already beast against other camels with the +4 to mele armor. This tech is negating all the blacsmith upgrade of the enemy camel line alone. so Giving them 50% bonus damage to camels is just too much.
1 Like
So the civ gets a 25% discount on all units food cost for free?
And How does that help against hindustanis? Or saracens?
Except turks have gunpowder units and cav archers.
Only in imp after an expensive tech is researched.
Or matbs you should realize that other civs havd non camel options and gurjaras do not
Or matbs you should realize that other civs havd non camel options and gurjaras do not
Then for me the civ was badly designed to start with. IMHO.
Only in imp after an expensive tech is researched.
Yup the civ already excells in early game why give them such power spike through all the game?
So the civ gets a 25% discount on all units food cost for free?
And How does that help against hindustanis? Or saracens?
Food is very important early game
Also the shrivamsha raider could get buffed while camels gets nerfed that a good way around it.
I dont mind gurajas camels to be strong but not by that much. Like french pally vs teuton vs lithuanian vs the rest.
Gameplay and balance > history.
So lets just change the entire balance of the game just because you dont like 1 units interaction.
At least its not knight vs knight or archer vs archer.
They wanted to go for a civ that isnt iust another generic knight or archer civ.
You mean the civ that is dead when gold runs out? And lacks a good all around unit in castle age?
And what option does that leave them against other camel civs? Nothing. Their archers arent good, shrivamsha aint good against camels, and they have no pikes.
Does this civ need nerfs.
Most likely. But that doesnt mean you utterly gut them
5 Likes
And what option does that leave them against other camel civs? Nothing. Their archers arent good, shrivamsha aint good against camels, and they have no pikes. Does this civ need nerfs.
Most likely. But that doesnt mean you utterly gut them
I agree with you. I think hindustanis camels are even worst. Take for example hindustanis camel vs turks camels. after the fight they have 36.2% more health imagine if they mix it with some halbs
Except turks have options, the camel isnt their end all be all against other cavalry.
And turks arent a camel civ furthermore.
Meanwhile gurjaras are a camel civ and don’t have other options
The reason for both to deal damage agaisnt themselves is quite simple: they are both low attack and sturdy units so without that bonus damage they would take ages to kill each other.
3 Likes
So you think spears are misdisigned cause they don’t have that bonus damage vs spears aswell?
Now that you said it spear fights are kind of a meme but halberdiers at least don’t need such bonus damage since their attack is much more increased than their health.
But that’s exactly what I like about this. Cause that means players are encouraged to add something different. The player wh is first in adding eg archers has a big advantage cause he could clean the opponent spears.
But with skirms and camels it’s actually the opposite, the game converges generally in even more skirm/camel play. And the bonus damage is a huge factor here.
I think it would make these matchups way more interesting + diverse if these bonus damage was gone like it is with spears.
pike v pike is 4 damage with 55 hp. so 14 hits to kill
halb vs halb is 7 damage with 60 hp, so 9 hits to kill
camel rider without bonus would be 6 damage, with 120 hp, so 20 hits
heavy camel rider without bonus would be 8 damage, with 140 hp, so 18 hits.
factoring in that pikes and halbs attack with rof of 3 and camels with 2, in castle age this takes about the same time (42 vs 40), but in imperial heavy camel rider fights would be significantly slower compared to halb v halb (27 v 36). bear in mind that halb v halb fights are considered absurdly slow
(please correct me if the math is wrong)
also the anti-camel damage is already only half the anti-cav I think this is in a good place
Well camels are gold units so they should do bonus dmg to each other. Camels are already bad vs archers which is quite a huge deal considering that aren’t cheap gold wise. Also playing camel vs knight camel mix would be super rng based. You usually don’t nicro single melee units in larger groups and if your camels don’t atk the knights but the camels you lose (although you technically make the counter units).
I see the argument for skirms but also think it’s not a good addition to the game. Firstly you have the same problem as described above that even if you tend to micro skirms more than melee units at some point skirm will get pretty useless. The opponent puts skirms as meatshield and archers behind and skirm will lose to skirm archer comp. Especially britons will become pretty op if you ask me. Also I can imagine people start camping opponents res in feudal age so it gets super awkward to clean those up as defender needs to make scouts to clean them up otherwise all the vils go idle. Meanwhile the other player walls up and gets a huge advantage bc of faster castle age time.
Also you needed to introduce skirm armor class and rebalance everything which could mess up a lot of stuff.