I think the wood bonus is too focused, in a way that makes the bonus extremely strong on water maps, but OK on land maps. It’s like their entire eco bonus is focused on 1 resource which is wrong in my opinion.
Also, why did they need 5 different bonus for wood?
-Free lumber camp
-AND free wood tech
-AND instant wood tech (unlike delhi)
-AND food bonus on wood
-AND don’t need to drop-off
Why couldn’t it be just 1 or 2 of those? And then maybe add another eco bonus on something else not related to gathering wood?
I think some of those bonus needs to be changed. Personally since I’m not fan of resource teleportation, I would put back the lumber camp and drop-off, but keep the lumber camp super cheap AND free wood tech AND food on wood gather (that’s already 3 bonus, more than enough).
But if they really want to keep it, I guess they could also remove the food bonus or add back the wood tech in another building (house?).
Maybe instead the food bonus comes from deer or sheep or something else.
How do you think the wood bonus should be reworked so that the civ is more balanced on land AND water?
This bonus was created to attrack aoe3 players -_- Im pretty sure about that. If u saw the last DLC was developed for the same company that mantains aoe3, they put stupid aoe3 mechanics on the game like the wood with no gathering (in aoe3 all the resources gathered automatically), the manors is the copy of the banks that give u free gold income on aoe3.
For me, the solution can be:
Dont let the aoe3 developers touch the game pls
The vills carry the wood (like the russ ships) and when they have 10 woods automatically gather on ur resoruces thats avoid that the KT be so strong on water because KT had to wait until every vill carry the 10 wood resource.
Manors have to cost population
Stop the free incomes in aoe4, free incomes doesnt belong to RTS games. Thank u
The base wood gather rate is actually slower than any other civ. Other civs gather wood a 0.75 while actively gathering. It’s just all other civs have to dropoff so that eats into the avg gathering bringing to around 0.65 with a dropoff 2 tiles away roundtrip. Originally the KT wood gather rate was 0.65 but with the 20% bonus as food meant they got an overall resource gather rate (.78) that’s even higher than the active gather rate of other civs on wood.
That got nerfed to the current base wood gather rate of 0.63 with a net resources gather rate of 0.756 (virtually the same as the active gathering rate of other civs).
0.756 isn’t virtually the same as 0.65, if what you’re saying is right. And that 0.65 is probably overestimated since you don’t always play perfectly with new lumber camp and sometimes villagers get spread out.
Also on top of that, you get the wood tech for free AND instantly when you age up. So there’s like 1 min at least where you have +15% on top of the 0.75 (0.86?) while the opponent is still 0.65 or less.
It’s still making the civ too strong on water map.
I didn’t say 0.756 is virtually the same as the effective 0.65 of most civ gathering rate on wood.
Also you’re conflating the bonus? Yes they instantly get the wood gathering bonus but in terms of the wood gathering which is the focus of your post, that only goes up to .7245 wood gathering. Compare that to standard civ 15% wood buff, assuming no wheelbarrow and nominal walking distance of 4 tiles roundtrip you get (10wood)/(10wood/[1.15x0.75] + 4tiles/1.125) =0.66. 0.7245/0.66 is only ~10% better wood gathering.
Consider Rus free gold from bounty, improved food gathering, and wooden fortress buff nets 20% more wood directly? And China gets both free tax and IO buff grants 20% more anything being dropped off at the supervised depot. A net 10% wood buff and an even more miniscule food trickle, is IMO decent, but not OP? IDK
Why not consider the food bonus though? You get it for free.
Wooden fortress need be built and basically give same bonus as the free food bonus, + tenplar also have free tech + the extra 10% wood gathering because no drop off that’s a lot of advantage over rus that needs to spend 150 on wood upgrade, 250 on fortress and 200 on wheelbarrow
But it’s not just 10%, that’s just the wood gathering, you’re looking at 1 out of 4 bonus only.
You also get the free food, the free tech, the instant tech and no lumber camp cost.
They are still completely overpowered on water maps.
I used to have a lot of issues with the game balance, my rating isn’t bad so I think I have a good grasp on it. In the current patch that’s pretty much the only thing i think should be reworked, (this with maybe the range of sync shot but it’s a lesser issue), because you have such a big disadvantage against them on water maps.
You’re extra zoomed in on this ONE bonus that you ignore how this ONE bonus compared to other civs bonuses.
Correction, you’re right, the food trickle isn’t smaller than the 10% comparative advantage KT has over standard civs. It’s better to lump it all together and say (0.63x1.2x1.15) total resources gathering rate per wood villager.
On water maps merely getting a lot of wood is meaningful but it’s not the all be especially compared to RUS ON WATER? Rus get improved wood gathering via the wooden fortress, gets constant food on fishing with no dropoff needed and superior water military given their ability to convert the fishing ships into military on the fly.
Then you have china that gets everything aforementioned and faster dock production.
All things considered this ONE bonus that KT has for wood is only mega impactful on water meanwhile other civs are all around OP on water and land.
150 on the wood tech upgrade
225 on wheelbarrow
175 on a fortress
at least 100 on lumber camps
And then the wood tech takes 45 sec to research, thats another 50 lost resources compared to templar. Probably another 50 resources from the 10% bonus from not having to drop-off.
After all that, thats around 800 extra resources, thats almost 4 extra ships worth of resources when reaching feudal.
And then from now on (if we count that rus fortress bonus is equivalent to the food templar bonus) templar still have 10% faster gather rate on top of the 4 extra ships worth of resources.
And Rus is already considered a strong civ on water, so we’re comparing to the best here. If you take a civ like delhi or french youd be so far behind compared to Templar on water maps.
Templar could get a new bonus related to another resources if one of the 4 lumber advantages get removed, so that they dont get nerfed on land.
Or maybe if Im wrong tell me what Im doing wrong against templar, because I keep losing to them on boulder bay. (Diamond rank)
Usually the game goes like this, we both make 2-3 docks, and start fighting on water, with not much fighting on land, everything seems to be trading “equally” so they basically lose a similar number of ships as me, and we keep producing them, and then at one point, they suddenly age up to castle, and I’m still using ALL my resources to keep up the water fight… Probably because I spent all on lumber camp, wood upgrades and other stuff, and they get that 20% food and 10-15% wood (lumber camp not always placed perfectly)…
So even though the fight felt “equal” the whole time, they suddently are in castle so I need to either surrender the water by aging up, or stay in feudal and get destroyed by upgraded units.
You’re not supposed to have spent all of that while transitioning to feudal on a water map? You’d would have started on stragglers around your TC THEN made one lumber camp for 50 wood. You would only begin to start saving up to spend on upgrades once you were established on water and could afford the excess resources be divert to said upgrades. Meanwhile as Rus you still got bounty working, almost instant fish food cache and the water momentum.
While for current KT would net more wood in that time, you’d be ahead in net food given your civ bonus and therefore could afford to place more workers on wood gathering to balance out the KT wood buff.
No civilization should have a “don’t build X drop off point” bonus.
Developers who were moved from AoE3 to AoE4 are shoehorning it into AoE4.
This isn’t AoE3. Remove that garbage and make them create lumber camps.
A well defining trait of what made AoE2 and by proxy, AoE4 successful, was strategic components like that of the drop off points. Designers who do not see the value of this are hurting this game by adding “bonuses” that instead dismantle the integrity of this game.
Knights templar are fine as they are, the wood gathering is a little bit lower to compensate. That civ variation places with way more risks and investments compared to some civs that can stay home. They also have no traders thus have no secondary wood income on water/hybrid maps with water trading. Before you complain look at Rus who got a pretty busted passive/bonus income. Learn to play against KT’s weaknesses simply as that.
It would have been fine if Relic sticked with their original idea of removing water from the game completely. Unfortunately, some loud mouth people in the forums made them back off from that.
I looked on the wikia and they are the same Forgotten Empires devs who made the previous DLC… at most the TSA campaign was made by Relic but nothing else, the rest was made by Cysion and Forgotten Empires…And yes, they do it to attract AoE 3 players, since they stopped supporting that game and want AoE 3 players to move to AoE 4 and not be saying “we want new DLC for AoE 3” in every Facebook post…
Late, they stopped supporting and providing DLCs for AoE 3 to move on to Retold and AoE 4, so surely the next DLC for those games will bring (as they have been doing) mechanics from AoE 3 to 4 (manors producing resources like banks and advancing age through alliances with the Templars)… think that the next AoE 4 and Retold DLCs could come with Spanish like those in 2 and 3, Norse like those in Retold and Aztecs and Incas like those in 3…
Of course, the Templars can only get gold from their pilgrims, which is why they can’t stay in one place… the thing about generating wood quickly without depositing resources is because the Templars didn’t have many wooden buildings since they were in the middle of the desert… they only had stone fortifications and at most camps here and there…
It wouldn’t have felt like an AoE but more like a CoH…
So how do i play against them on boulder bay or other water map?
Because that’s really the only thing in the whole game i think needs rework. They have a huge resources advantage there in first 15 min. Also no one goes trading on water map in the first 15 min so i don’t get your argument.
It doesn’t matter much when the majority of people who play from the very first AoE game don’t like water maps anyway. It’s just a group of people who want to keep a certain advanrage over people who migrated from Blizzard RTS games as fish boom was an alien concept to them, but that advantage didn’t last very long.
